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From: low@unc.cs.unc.edu (Kah-Chan Low)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Call For Discussion about creating soc.culture.asean
Message-ID: <9898@thorin.cs.unc.edu>
Date: 9 Oct 89 20:17:23 GMT
References: <31779@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> <12947@orstcs.CS.ORST.EDU> <31785@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> <3916@helios.ee.lbl.gov>
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Reply-To: low@unc.cs.unc.edu (Kah-Chan Low)
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In article <3916@helios.ee.lbl.gov> gunadhi@lbl-csam.arpa (Himawan Gunadhi) writes:
>In article <31785@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> timlee@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Timothy J. Lee) writes:
>>In article <12947@orstcs.CS.ORST.EDU> harish@guille.ECE.ORST.EDU (Harish Pillay) writes:
>> 
]>|There are now groups such as soc.culture.china, .indian, .hongkong, .taiwan,
]>|.japan, .korea, .sri-lanka, .greece, .turkish.  Pray tell me what these
]>|mean?  Aren't these political entities?  Isn't a nation a political entity?
]>
]>Yes, BUT these also describe cultural groupings(*).  How do the cultures
]>of the ASEAN nations have more in common with each other than they do
]>with Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, and Myanmar?
]>
]>(*) As far as Taiwan and Hongkong are concerned, they may be less
]>appropriate in this context, although the 1 (Hongkong) to 3 (Taiwan)
]>century separation from the rest of China has been argued to create
]>some distinct cultural differences ("Taiwanese are[ not] Chinese", etc).
]>
]This question again shows your ignorance on the topic. Indonesia, Malaysia,
]Brunei, Singapore, southern Phillipines and southern Thailand are 
]heavily populated by the Malay-Indonesian ethnic groups. 
]They even share to a large extent, the Malay-Indonesian language. 
]The Malay language, which is spoken in Brunei,
]Malaysia and Singapore, is about 90% identical to Indonesian, spoken in
]Indonesia. Tagalog, the national language of Phillipines, has a great deal
]of similarities with Malay/Indonesian. In southern Thailand, the people are
]essentially identical to the Malays of neighboring Malaysia.
]Ethnic tribes from Borneo (Kalimantan to Indonesians) have been a source
]for the populations of 4 of these countries. In
]the last 2 centuries, there has been a large influx of Chinese to
]Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei and Singapore, and in these countries the
]Chinese too have often taken up a distinct identity from those in 
]the PRC, ROC or HK. For example, I am an Indonesian Chinese whose 
]Indonesian lineage goes back over a century, 
]and despite the fact that there has been little mixing in my
]families, I share a lot culturally with the Indonesian Pribumis (i.e. those
]who are ethnic to Indonesia). Interestingly, in Singapore, Brunei and
]Malaysia, there are similar Chinese communities, i.e. those who have
]blended Chinese culture with Malay cultures to create a unique new culture.
]
]In Thailand and Phillipines, there has been a great deal of Chinese
]immigration too, in fact going back much longer than in the other 4
]countries. Further, there has also been large migrations of 
]Indians/Pakistanis/Sri Lankans from the Indian Subcontinent during 
]the British reign in Asia. So today, Indians are found in Malaysia, 
]Singapore, Malaysia, and Brunei and have also made significant 
]contributions to the culture and other aspects of
]society. It is also interesting to note the Indian cultural influence upon
]Indonesia, which at one time had great Hindu and Buddhist empires, and
]whose language is based on Sanskrit. My name for example, is almost
]as likely to be an Indian name as it is Indonesian.
]Similar influences can be seen in the case of Thai culture.
]In fact the dances and music of Indonesia are remarkably close to
]those of Thailand; even the themes are basically those from the Hindu
]classics of Mahabratha and Ramayana. And we have not even spoken about
]food! Have you ever tried Chinese food from these countries-- it puts to
]shame the stuff I eat here (which supposedly are more authentic Chinese!). 
]Thus, in terms of ethnicity, languages, history, arts and folklore, and
]current aspirations, there are many common strands running through these 
]six nations.
]
]I am one of the early supporters of setting up this group. I did not
]realize that the proposal would be seen as an attempt to start a political
]discussion, especially wrt the 6 ASEAN nations versus Indochina etc. It is
]too bad, because the thought did not even occur to me. Many people here
]obviously first heard of ASEAN wrt its Indochina policies (i.e. Vietnamese
]occupation of Cambodia). But as has been stressed by Harish Pillay,
]that has been about the only cohesive action the members put together that
]has been political in nature. Otherwise, the term "ASEAN" as most of us
]from the region use it, is meant purely as a way of labeling ourselves. In
]fact it is due to the fact that we seem to know so little about ourselves
]and our shared values, that inspires the setting up of this group. Back in
]our home nations, there is too much sensitivity against offending one
]another, and overall too much censorship of the media, for us to be more
]familiar with the others. People forget that Indonesia was technically at war
]with Malaysia and Singapore in the 60's, and that Brunei has been coveted
]on and off by the Phillipines, Malaysia and Indonesia. 
]
]In fact, the person who claimed that ASEAN, which he insists is political
]in nature, is a farce, is correct in the sense that he has defined the
]organization! It has not been a political force, because it was not
]intended to be one. If the nature of the discussions in the proposed
]newsgroup soc.culture.asean were purely political, I doubt 
]if many citizens of those six members would come forth and say much, 
]let alone bother to vote "yes"! Thus, the presumptions of 
]most of the proposed group's critics, of our intentions, 
]are way off the mark. The only valid criticism I concede is over the
]naming convention. Perhaps someone can propose the creation of an
]Indochina group, and in that way we can simultaneously create, say,
]a soc.culture.se-asia.indochina and soc.culture.se-asia.asean. 
]We did not intend to exclude Indochina or Myanmar, or slight the people 
]from those nations. We did not claim that we are creating a SE Asian group
]to begin with! We are simply too different from the Indochinese/Burmese,
]to have many shared interests.
]--
]Himawan Gunadhi
]gunadhi@csam.lbl.gov
]phgun@ucbviolet.bitnet