Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!uwm.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: conan@wish-bone.berkeley.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: is the Bible God's word? Message-ID: Date: 5 Oct 89 03:19:38 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Math Dept., UC Berkeley Lines: 81 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article palosaari@oxy.edu (Jedidiah Jon Palosaari) writes: >I've heard that there are a couple contemporary historians living during the >time of Jesus who did not believe in Him as the Son of God (ie Romans) but >who documented his miracles and that He was seen after the resurrection. >Does anyone know anything more about this? > [ Stuff from clh deleted....] I studied this question thoroughly some years ago in a course on Roman history. All of the following should be correct, though some of the details may be garbled. (Oh, the years like grains of sand.....) Mentions of Christ and Christianity are exceedingly rare from the first century. Our moderator is problably correct in pointing out that the earliest documents are the letters of St. Paul. Christ is mentioned directly by two (possibly three) non-christian texts. Tacitus, a Roman historian of the late first century, mentions him briefly (I can't remember the details). Josephus, the Jewish historian (writing about 80 AD) mentions Jesus twice. Once is a one line reference; the other is a long passage which is clearly an inter- polation by a christian scribe. However scholars believe that the gloss is an expansion of a brief reference similar to the first one. A third passage which needs to be mentioned is contained in the Roman "historian" Suetonius (sp?). In a passage discussing riots in Rome, he says they were provoked by a Jewish sect whose leader was "Chrestus". Scholars argue endlessly if "Chrestus" == "Christus" or not. The reliability of the passage is reduced further when you realize that Suetonius was the Roman equivalent of People Magazine. The sum total of these passages is that there was a man named Jesus, who lived in Judea in the period 20-30 AD, and who apparently was executed during the reign of the Procurator Pontius Pilate. One other passage deserves a mention for its historical value. Pliny the Younger, while serving as a high Roman official (governor?) somewhere in Asia Minor, used to continually pester the emperor Trajan (circa 100-110 AD) with letters detailing his problems. One of these letters mentions Christians. The letter is worth reading because it preserves a few interesting details of paleochristian practices (for example: if I recall correctly, they gathered together on Sundays) and the response this new sect evoked from Roman officials. These passages are, to my knowledge, every non-christian source from the first century which mentions Christ or christianity. Arhceological and other historial sources provide some additional background information. (The following facts are jumbled together without respect to sources.) Herod the Great ruled until 4 BC--our calenders are clearly off. Pontius Pilate was procurator of Judea until 36 AD. In that year he was relieved of his post by the Proconsul of Syria for excessive violence against the natives. (Sort of poetic justice....) There appears to be little evidence for the world-wide census Luke mentions, though scholars have linked it to a regional tax assessment sometime between 10 and 1 BC. (This I believe, comes from an inscription.) Thats about it for the evidence--the overwhelming majority of our knowledge comes from the NT. Skeptics often throw this up as a reason for doubt-- however, most of our knowledge about any event from antiquity comes from a similarly small set of sources which are often even more "contradictory" (no flames, please!) than the NT. For further information, there are several books on the subject. One that comes to mind has a title along the lines of _Christ Outside the New Testa- ment_. Also, any good text on Roman history should give you more exact references to the texts I mentioned above. (As usual, be wary of the bias, pro or con, of the authors. In classical studies, it is very easy to twist the limited evidence to mean what you want it to.) If you have any further questions, post them or email them (conan@math.berkeley.edu) to me--I'd love an excuse to read up on this again. Your brother in Christ, David Cruz-Uribe, SFO