Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!bloom-beacon!ora!daemon
From: gazit@lear.cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Affirmative Action is Temporary
Summary: In 50 millions year AA will be over...
Message-ID: <15796@duke.cs.duke.edu>
Date: 17 Oct 89 19:26:42 GMT
References: <1058@uvaarpa.virginia.edu>
Sender: ambar@ora.ora.com
Reply-To: gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel)
Organization: The Piranha Club
Lines: 88
Approved: ambar@ora.com

In article <1058@uvaarpa.virginia.edu> scl@uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU (Stephen C. Losen) writes:

>Most opponents of affirmative action don't seem to realize that
>AA is a temporary measure.  A kluge, a hack, a patch.  In an ideal

Would you mind to tell us *when* this temporary measure will be ended?
(A *date* please.)  If you can't give a date would you mind to explain
why are you so sure that it is a temporary measures?

>Clearly no one believes that we are living in such an ideal society now.

Even if the situation is bad, there is no justification to make it worse...

>Let me cite a small example.  Back in the days of discrimination, all
>government road building contracts in the state of Virginia went to white
>construction firms, making it impossible for black contractors to get any
>road projects.  When discrimination became illegal, the state of Virginia
>had to hand out road contracts purely on the basis of merit.  Is anyone
>surprised that absolutely nothing changed?  That all the road contracts
>continued to go to white contractors?  This was perfectly legal under the
>new law bacause the white contractors were indeed more qualified.  After
>all, they had built all the other roads in the state.

You just forgot to mention that the case went to the court and the decision
was that only black contractor who were discriminated should get
AA advantages.

I ask you one question:
Should a woman who was not discriminated (aside from "the neighbors did 
not hired me to cut the grass when I was a teenager") get AA advantages?  

>Clearly it is not sufficient to simply declare discrimination to be illegal
>and continue afterward with business as usual.  

Why would not you start with this and see if it will work?

I would like to see large fines for managers who don't hire the best candidate,
even if his company gave a large pork-barrel to the feminists (quota).

>I personally do not like
>discrimination in any form and I freely admit that AA is reverse
>discrimination.  

What you *do* is what you are.  If you discriminate against the kids
of the Vietnamese boat people because "we already have too many asians
in our school/company etc." then you're racist.  Period.

>But I also realize that some sort of temporary, corrective
>action must be taken to undo the damage of past discrimination.  

\begin{sarcasm}
The name of minorities' companies was hurt by WedTech.  Should not we 
increase their AA quotas to help them get over that bad name?
\end{sarcasm}

>Perhaps AA is not the best solution.  

That's the best solution that the feminist movement can find.
They've just fell in love with their pork-barrel...

>Perhaps there should be more emphasis on education.  

Most teachers are women.  
Do you expect the *feminist* movement to push them to do a better job?

>But might this not require preferential
>college admission to traditionally under-represented social groups?

50 years ago there were very few asians in the top universities.  Do you
consider the asians "traditionally under-represented"?  If not, why not?

>Should we simply give up, realizing that no solution is truly fair, thus
>writing off as hopeless the current imbalance and praying that everything
>works out on its own after two or three generations?  I say we must fix the
>problem now, for not doing anything is also unfair.

Do you know how to solve the problem? 

Why don't you start you experiment in one state and if it works (fat
chance...) move on?  Why is it so important to you that if your sociological
theory is wrong you would screw up *everybody*?

>Steve Losen     scl@virginia.edu

Hillel                                                gazit@cs.duke.edu

When I do it to you it's sexism
When you do it to me it's feminism