Path: utzoo!utgpu!utstat!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!um-math!sharkey!cfctech!teemc!ka3ovk!ki4pv!cdin-1!icdi10!fr From: fr@icdi10.UUCP (Fred Rump from home) Newsgroups: comp.databases Subject: Re: Information wanted on Db Vista Message-ID: <463@icdi10.UUCP> Date: 22 Oct 89 02:56:59 GMT References: <1989Oct11.141207.18348@kadsma.uucp> <17731@brunix.UUCP> <456@icdi10.UUCP> <18389@brunix.UUCP> Reply-To: fr@icdi10.UUCP (Fred Rump from home) Distribution: usa Organization: but normally @ Compudata Inc. Phila PA Lines: 102 In article <18389@brunix.UUCP> jhc@iris.brown.edu (James H. Coombs) writes: >In article <456@icdi10.UUCP> fr@icdi10.UUCP (Fred Rump from home) writes: >> I believe you're comparing apples and oranges here. >Ok, so what does db_Vista offer? Since there seems to be some question as to what this product is let me expound for the benefit of all for a moment. >> A C-Tree access mechanism is NOT a data base: VISTA is - both network and >> relational. > >What makes db_Vista a relational data base? What does c-tree lack? Perhaps I stretched the point of purely relational as per database standard specifications. But then every product seems to claim the title without regard for claims of purity. Vista is a real 'network' type database. But it does and can operate from a relational view. In its most basic sense a network model is essentially also relational. A table is a record type; a row is an occurrence; a column is a field. But what is unique to the network model is the additional ability to directly define various relationships between record types. These relationships, using sets, can be one-to-many, many-to-one or many-to-many according to owners and members. Transparent pointers relate these sets to each other. Such set is really a pre-defined join from the relational model. While standard SQL relational technology presently only provides for inner joins such restriction is not the case in 'viewing' the vista network model. Typically a set path from member to owner provides an inner join while owner to member does the outer join. The situation of preset joins necessitates database design up front in the relational model but has the tremendous performance advantage over the relational in that unnecessary indexing cuts disk access requirements by perhaps two or three reads per record requirement. Space requirements are also reduced. For large databases, with many system and other sets and where speed is essential in providing linkages based upon random conditions, these factors often make a network the only optional database tool to be considered as functional. >> In its price range > >Which is what? Someone sent me mail asking about the price of c-tree. >I see that Programmer's Connection is advertising it for $315 (includes >source). I can't find a price on db_Vista. As I recall, it was something >like $2500 for db_Vista and another $2500 for db_Query. There is >also db_Revise. With source you're in the ballpark. I think I paid around $7000 for the package. Remember it's a one time deal. A few Oracle run-times will match that quickly and add up to real dollars over time if the product sells. >So, db_Vista has record-level locking? not just a suggested method for >application developers to implement their own record locking? It has >variable length records? It has (via db_Query) a full SQL that does not >require one to declare access paths first and that optimizes queries? Heh, we have the source. We can do whatever we want with it. That was the whole point of my previous note. I pay expensive programmers with all kinds of advanced degrees and experience levels to do these things. But I have control. And we don't need variable length records. Our textual data is handled internally using as many multiple fixed length records as needed. The user thinks he's doing wordprocessing in the database where this is applicable. As developers we control the database design. We also provide all the facilities to get information the user would wish to see in any way or fashion that turns him on. Data extracts for mail-merge with any wordprocessor, reports of user design, labels in any of many possible sequences, the list goes on and on. But still we are toying with the idea of using IQ (Intelligent Query) as a front end. This is available for relational databases (like Informix, Unify, Oracle) too. The jury is still out as to its need. >Do you work for Raima, Fred? >Dr. James H. Coombs Obviously my signature says otherwise. I simply went looking for the best product to use for my best product. In the vertical I play in I don't intend to ever be #2 and I certainly would be right in the pack if I used something like C-Tree - or at the bottom with a dbase III type product. Quick and dirty stuff is one thing, but this is multi-user-land and the expectations are a little higher; as is the price. PS Perhaps you missed the recent issue of PCWEEK where Vista was rated number 1 for database development products in functionality and flexibility. It lost the overall rating as number one because it has no front end like YAM or some other screen design feature. So over-all it was only #2. Like I said, it's only for developers to do their own thing. The user never sees the name. Fred Rump -- This is my house. My castle will get started right after I finish with news. 26 Warren St. uucp: ...{bpa dsinc uunet}!cdin-1!icdi10!fr Beverly, NJ 08010 domain: fred@cdin-1.uu.net or icdi10!fr@cdin-1.uu.net 609-386-6846 "Freude... 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