Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!unmvax!nmtsun!scksnsr From: scksnsr@nmtsun.nmt.edu (Sean Kelly) Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st Subject: Re: TT vs 386 boxes and Apples Message-ID: <3364@nmtsun.nmt.edu> Date: 22 Oct 89 17:31:07 GMT References: <46587ca5.14a1f@force.UUCP> <1049@cc.helsinki.fi> Reply-To: scksnsr@nmtsun.nmt.edu (Sean Kelly) Organization: New Mexico Tech, Socorro NM Lines: 151 cmm1@CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: Well, unless you are a diehard Atari fan (I know, there are still a few left), I would advise you to buy the 25mhz 386 now (if you do indeed need it now). Besides, if you want to use it for work you would be much better off with an industry standard 386 rather than the TT (if it ever does hit the market). The 68030 is such a nice mpu compared to the Intel mpu's. That's for certain. The context is much nicer! [...] Besides, who needs another workstation with non-industry standard 16 bit slots. Got that right. <1049@cc.helsinki.fi> JALKIO@cc.helsinki.fi (Varsinainen sikapossu kuoli t{n{{n.) responds: What makes the 386 an industry standard? As far as I know, there are very few programs especially for it. The more people keep supporting only the PC-line (XT, AT, 386...), the more technology has to go along the same traditional tracks. I don't know about Finland, but here there are more PC's on desktops for the small business and home user than loose paperclips :-). Seriously, the amount of PC's abound is sickening. If it's not an industry standard, tell me what is. Besides, you said more people supporting one line, the more technology has to go along the same tracks ... doesn't this sound like industry standardization? (Varsinainen sikapossu kuoli t{n{{n.) continues: I have got every program I've needed for my Atari ST this far. Usually they are more user-friendly than their PC-counterparts. I think it is stupid to speculate about if the TT is coming or not. They have already introduced it in Germany. (And if it wouldn't come, Atari could soon be in bankrupt or something...) I also have just about every program I've needed for my Atari ST, too. Almost every. There are things for our SUNs that I wouldn't mind having, but my biggest hang up is the fact that the same programs available on other machines are so much more powerful, nicer, AVAILABLE, and supported. If Atari's listening, Varsinainen's made a good point within parentheses above. I'm not sure if bankrupt is the word. Maybe lynched by its user base (excluding the fanatics). Richard Covert writes: Not only are 80386 PC computers available there have been some really great prices in misc.forsale for 25 MHZ 80386 computers with 1024 x 768 x 16colors color graphics. something beyond the power of a TT, I believe. (Varsinainen sikapossu kuoli t{n{{n.) responds: How come that is beyond the power of a TT? For even the ST is NOW available a graphics card with resolution 1280x1024 with 16 colours from palette of 262144. And this is not the only one. I doubt a 25MHz 386 is any faster than a TT. Or just get a SUN 3/260 or a Sparcstation, a blow both away. Much more expensive, true. But SunOS UNIX is truly superb. Also, I know of a few 25MHz 386's that could beat a TT. Richard Covert continues: Also, the ads I have seen indicate that the 80386 PCs have 32 bit, 16 bit, and 8 bit motherboard busses, so can use a whole spectrum of IBM PC plugin boards (things like hard disk on a card, internal modems, additional serial i/o, eprom burners, geez just all sorts of things that Atari customers are too cheap to want to buy!!). To which Varsiinainen replies: What's so important in having INTERNAL modems, etc... You can buy all off those devices for ST's and TT's, too. Just take a look at my desk, and you'll see the advantage of INTERNAL stuff. I've got my 1040 sitting on it. A huge cable comes out for my external disk drive, which is also propped up vertically against the wall behind the desk; I've got another cable coming out to the Atari EXTERNAL harddrive that's too big for 20 Meg, and sounds like a 747 during takeoff. Then I've got another cable coming out to my EXTERNAL modem. And, finally, cables going out to my printer and my two monitors. It's a mess! If my 1040 were more like a Mega (which is also too small), and if I could put the harddrive, diskdrive, and modem all inside it on CARDS, I'd just have to worry about hiding the cable for the printer---and that's easy by just throwing it behind the bloody CPU box with its nice INTERNAL cards. Covert continues: So, that kinda leaves Atari and the VaporWare TT/P (for Plastic, sheez what a great name for a computer. A Plastic computer. Oh boy!!) for someone else to buy!! To which Varsinainen replies: Can't you make up better arguments that ones that are based on a computer's name? Richard is not saying the the name of the bloody thing is something that should be taken into account. He's merely making an editorial comment about Atari's choice to call the TT/P the `Plastic.' I agree with him: Oh boy! A Plastic computer! Chris writes: Now that I've got my own little 68030 worksation (named after a popular red fruit ) and have it actually in front of me (yes, you can actually see and touch it!). Varsinainen says: Why compare an Apple with 68030 to an ST?!?! Compare a MAC to a ST and compare their price, too! A ST costs only less than a third of a rival MAC, at least here in Finland. You can still emulate a MAC with a ST even faster than a real MAC. Where does all that extra money Apple takes go? Chris is not comparing an Apple II to an ST. In fact, I don't know of any Apple II that has a 68030. He OBVIOUSLY means his Mac. Get a clue :-) And my ST can NEVER beat the nearby Mac II in terms of speed or graphics. Richard says: So, from past experience we can expect a CHEAP 68030 machine from Atari that won't be expandable and will be margin in other aspects. Sounds right. When I was still a fanatic, I was convinced that the Atari was the most powerful computer out for the price. For only a few hundred dollars more (I had the money) I could have gotten (ack) an Amiga (oh no!). Or something that has support. Dare I say it? Yes, a Mac. Varsinainen replies: How come won't be expandable??? You can even expand a ST very well, even if it doesn't actually have ANY card slots... By the way, remember MIDI, too. Sure I guess you can expand an ST `very well,' but it isn't easy. You just don't lift the cover a drop in a card. You lift the cover, desolder a chip, patch a jumper, solder a socket, pay through the nose for parts, and labor if you don't know how. I remember MIDI. That's about the only thing Atari's got going for the ST line. I avoid Intel like the plague, but my next Motorola box will NOT be Atari. Yes, the ST's are inexpensive. That's great. If you want it now, though, forget it. And support? I've sent out all the warranty cards I could from my Atari stuff, and I've never gotten a single brochure from Atari, or a newsletter, or anything. I wonder if there's anybody back there. Authorized repair centers? We don't need no stinking authorized repair centers! Just remember: (Power Without the Price) = (You Get What You Pay For) Pipe flames to /dev/null.