Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!bloom-beacon!eru!luth!sunic!tut!hydra!hylka!jalkio From: JALKIO@cc.helsinki.fi (Jouni Alkio) Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st Subject: Re: TT, 386, Apple Message-ID: <1086@cc.helsinki.fi> Date: 23 Oct 89 19:36:07 GMT References: <46587ca5.14a1f@force.UUCP> <1049@cc.helsinki.fi> <3364@nmtsun.nmt.edu> Lines: 133 ->In article <3364@nmtsun.nmt.edu>, scksnsr@nmtsun.nmt.edu (Sean Kelly) writes: > cmm1@CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: > >> <1049@cc.helsinki.fi> JALKIO@cc.helsinki.fi >> (Jouni Alkio) responds: >> What makes the 386 an industry standard? As far as I know, there are >> very few programs especially for it. The more people keep supporting only >> the PC-line (XT, AT, 386...), the more technology has to go along the >> same traditional tracks. >> -> I don't know about Finland, but here there are more PC's on desktops for the -> small business and home user than loose paperclips :-). Seriously, the -> amount of PC's abound is sickening. If it's not an industry standard, -> tell me what is. Besides, you said more people supporting one line, -> the more technology has to go along the same tracks ... doesn't this -> sound like industry standardization? > We sure have tons of PC's here in Finland. I was talking about 386 specific software and there is not very much of it! The TT will be ST compatible, just like the 386 is PC-compatible, and MAC II is MAC-compatible! I think it won't take very long, when there is as much TT specific software as there is 386 specific software. By the way, I can use a lot of PC- or MAC-software on the ST, too. The coin (the industry standardization) has, as always, two sides. The good one is that you can get a lot of software. The bad one is the dependence on old technology. The same problem is with ST's and TT's, too - but the PC is older standard. > (Jouni Alkio) continues: > I have got every program I've needed for my Atari ST this far. Usually > they are more user-friendly than their PC-counterparts. I think it is stupid > to speculate about if the TT is coming or not. They have already introduced > it in Germany. (And if it wouldn't come, Atari could soon be in bankrupt > or something...) > -> I also have just about every program I've needed for my Atari ST, too. -> Almost every. There are things for our SUNs that I wouldn't mind having, -> but my biggest hang up is the fact that the same programs available on -> other machines are so much more powerful, nicer, AVAILABLE, and supported. If I have a program for my computer, isn't it available?!?!? Could you give an example of a program more powerful on a PC (in the same price-range, not a 386, for example)? > > Jouni Alkio: > What's so important in having INTERNAL modems, etc... You can buy all > off those devices for ST's and TT's, too. > -> Just take a look at my desk, and you'll see the advantage of INTERNAL stuff. -> I've got my 1040 sitting on it. A huge cable comes out for my external disk -> drive, which is also propped up vertically against the wall behind the desk; -> I've got another cable coming out to the Atari EXTERNAL harddrive that's too -> big for 20 Meg, and sounds like a 747 during takeoff. Then I've got another -> cable coming out to my EXTERNAL modem. And, finally, cables going out to -> my printer and my two monitors. It's a mess! If my 1040 were more like -> a Mega (which is also too small), and if I could put the harddrive, diskdrive, -> and modem all inside it on CARDS, I'd just have to worry about hiding the -> cable for the printer---and that's easy by just throwing it behind the bloody -> CPU box with its nice INTERNAL cards. I like having various devices on my desk. This doesn't mean that I couldn't use them. I admit that some people like emptier desks - and it's also practical in the offices, for example. For me, it's a matter of taste. It's not my fault if you have bought a noisy hard-disk. You are free to choose. Or do you mean that a PC-case would prevent the hard-disk from being so noisy?!?!? > >> Chris writes: >> Now that I've got my own little 68030 worksation (named after a popular >> red fruit ) and have it actually in front of me (yes, you can >> actually see and touch it!). > > Jouni says: > Why compare an Apple with 68030 to an ST?!?! Compare a MAC to a ST and > compare their price, too! A ST costs only less than a third of a rival > MAC, at least here in Finland. You can still emulate a MAC with a ST > even faster than a real MAC. Where does all that extra money Apple takes go? > -> Chris is not comparing an Apple II to an ST. In fact, I don't know of any -> Apple II that has a 68030. He OBVIOUSLY means his Mac. Get a clue :-) -> And my ST can NEVER beat the nearby Mac II in terms of speed or graphics. Wait a minute, I didn't write anything about Apple II (and if I did, I meaned Apple MAC II, of course)! I just didn't like the speed comparison between A 68030 APPLE AND A 68000 ST, it is unfair! OF COURSE a MAC II is technically much better than a ST - you could as well compare a MAC II with a supercomputer... It makes no sense comparing computers in completely other price-ranges. > >> Richard says: >> So, from past experience we can expect a CHEAP 68030 machine from Atari >> that won't be expandable and will be margin in other aspects. > > Sounds right. When I was still a fanatic, I was convinced that the Atari > was the most powerful computer out for the price. For only a few hundred > dollars more (I had the money) I could have gotten (ack) an Amiga (oh no!). > Or something that has support. Dare I say it? Yes, a Mac. What do you relly mean by that support? I wouldn't pay much extra money for getting some brochures, for example. One fact is, that you are slightly in another position as I - Europe is Atari's first marketing area for computers, as far as I know. > > Jouni replies: > How come won't be expandable??? You can even expand a ST very well, even > if it doesn't actually have ANY card slots... By the way, remember MIDI, > too. > -> Sure I guess you can expand an ST `very well,' but it isn't easy. You just -> don't lift the cover a drop in a card. You lift the cover, desolder a chip, -> patch a jumper, solder a socket, pay through the nose for parts, and labor -> if you don't know how. It doesn't have to be so easy if you are a bit handy. It would be nice if I just could insert the cards in their sockets, but it really doesn't matter very much for me. > -> Yes, the ST's are inexpensive. That's great. If you want it now, though, -> forget it. And support? I've sent out all the warranty cards I could -> from my Atari stuff, and I've never gotten a single brochure from Atari, -> or a newsletter, or anything. I wonder if there's anybody back there. -> Authorized repair centers? We don't need no stinking authorized repair -> centers! As I said before in this article, I wouldn't like to pay much extra for some brochures. *** NOTE: I changed the text "Varsinainen ..." to my real name "Jouni Alkio". The first "name" was not a name (I didn't know that it would represent a name, at all...) Sorry.*** Jouni Alkio