Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!uwm.edu!wuarchive!gem.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!aero!gazit@lear.cs.duke.edu
From: gazit@lear.cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Blast Off (was Re: how to bash feminism without really trying)
Summary: Long.
Message-ID: <15872@duke.cs.duke.edu>
Date: 26 Oct 89 03:20:29 GMT
References: <6561@columbia.edu>
Sender: nadel@aerospace.aero.org
Reply-To: gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit)
Organization: The Piranha Club
Lines: 213
Approved: nadel@aerospace.aero.org

In article <6561@columbia.edu> (Travis Lee Winfrey) writes:

>"feminists" as technicians of inequality, as if AA programs were all that
>they did or cared about.

Please count the political achievements of feminism in the last 15 years.
AA is in the top of the list, but of course it's not important...

>Presumably you mean actions other than feminist analyses of social
>structures, e.g., Catherine Mackinnon's "Toward a Feminist Theory of
>the State" (just published), Evelyn Fox Keller's "Reflections on Gender
>and Science", Andrea Dworkin's "Pornography", Carol Vance's "Pleasure
>and Danger", Varda Burstyn's "Women Against Censorship", Marilyn
>French's "Beyond Power", Susan Brownmiller's "Against Our Will", or the

I see that you're quite good in name dropping and you just can't see what wrong
in the feminist literature, so here is a small "spelling out":

>From "Against Our Will":

"War provides men with the perfect psychologic backdrop to give vent to their
contempt for women.  The very maleness of the military - the brute power of
weaponry exclusive in their hands, the spiritual bonding of men at arms, the
manly discipline of orders given and orders obeyed, the simple logic of the
hierarchical command - confirms for men what they long suspect, that women
are peripheral, irrelevant to the world that counts, passive spectators to
the action in the center ring."

Brownmiller says very clear that men enjoy being in army and all the jazz
around it.  Some simple questions like "if men enjoy being in war so much,
why there is a need to draft them?" are high above her feminist head.

I tell you that what she said is feminist Cow-Shit and her understanding of men
in army is somewhere near zero (*I* have first hand experience).  If you want
to debate about the *text* and not just to drop names feel free to do it, but
I prefer a non-moderated group (soc.men).

>literally thousands of other such books that range from studies of the

So quote some facts, show some theory, develop an idea.  I know that something
is *wrong* in our society, what you don't know is that Eighties' feminism is a
part of the *problem*.  Presenting men as creatures who enjoy to give and
obey orders is a part of the problem.

Got that, or should I *spell* it for your feminist mind?

>- Rape.  
>- Incest.
>- Wife Abuse.
>- Abortion
>- Sexual Harassment at work or at school, Ogling or fondling on the street.
>- Clitoridectomies, Infibulation, Forced Sterilization, 
>- Anorexia Nervosa, Bulimia, Makeup, Plastic Surgery, Liposuction,
>- Child Care
>- Gender Roles
>- Pornography.
>- Prostitution.
>- Homosexuality.
>- Patriarchal Roles & Models.

Would you mind to summarize what the feminist movement did about the above
problems, and how much the situation has improved in the last 15 years?

You talk about all these problems but use the political power you get to
push AA.  

WHY?

You ask a lot of questions, but you don't bother yourself to try to present
your opinion about some of the problems.  What you failed to realize is that
even if I don't have an answer it does not mean that you're right.

I'll answer some of your questions to show you the readers
the MCPs have *some* answers.

>- Abortion
>  This is possibly a women's issue, yes?  

But not in high priority.  For 15 years the feminists left it on a single
court decision.  "There's never time to do it right, but there's always
time to do it over."  especially if you have to use of your political force
for more urgent subjects...

>- Gender Roles
>  Is it a good thing that men have difficulty expressing emotions
>(except anger) in public?  Have you ever cried in public?  

NOYB.  My problems are *my* problems.  I may share them with friends, but
you are not my friend.

>Is it good that men work, and don't get to take care of their children?  

\begin{sarcasm}
They give orders and obey orders so every normal man enjoys it.

>Is the early death rate of men a good thing or a bad thing?  

As a result women are the majority and they elect better official.
Widows have so much of the wealth and they push women's better values.
\end{sarcasm}

Now tell me what *exactly* feminism has done to change these things.

>- Pornography.
>  Why do you think pornography is so popular?  

Shortage in sex for men.

>Does it implicitly express any particular role for women?  

The same role it expresses for men, sex machines.  If you don't believe me you
can close your politically correct books and go to 42 street and see some
porno material (I did it.  I try to find the raw data.)

>(Subtle hint: See Anorexia & Breast Implants, above.)  

Since the average man watches TV many more hours than he reads hard core porno,
and the women at TV are thin (woman in anorexia looks *bad* without clothes),
it seems to me that the influence of the TV is *much* greater.  Why can't
you do such a *simple* analysis by yourself?

>How about roles for men?  The vast majority of
>all pornography is prepared for straight men, although there is some
>made for straight women as well as lesbians and gay men.  Why is that
>proportion so predominant?  

10% of the population is a common upper estimate
for the number of homosexual.  In the sex shops I saw about 20%+ of the
material was for homosexual men.  Go out and *check* dear ignorant.

>- Prostitution.
>Why is prostitution simultaneously illegal and practiced all over the world? 

Why did women make their best to push the Prohibition?
Why did people continue to drink (and sometimes died) in the Prohibition time?

>Is prostitution a good thing or a bad thing?  

The question is not meaningful because we can't prevent prostitution.
I prefer Nevada-style prostitution where the prostitutes pay taxes,
get real protection, and have to be checked for VD every month.

>Is it degrading for a man to go down on another man,
>or to be anally penetrated by another man?  Is it for a woman?

What willing adults do between themselves is not my business.  If someone feels
degraded to do X, then so it be.  If someone else feels OK about X, so it be.
I don't see it as a moral question, and I don't think that I should
tell other people what I think about their sex lives.

>  Never mind, I'm way too tired to fill this one in.  Here's where I
>give up.  I haven't even gotten to literature, suffrage, marxism &
>feminism, madonna/whore dichotomies, passive roles, aggression/war,
>divorce, teen pregnancy, beauty contests, mommy worship, breast
>fetishization, bride dowry, female infantcide, or youth-obsessed cultures.  

I agree with you that there are problems, but I can't see your solutions.
Why don't you tell us about them?

>You've completely missed his point.  There are many feminists and
>organizations that are concerned with different issues, e.g., NARAL and
>abortion; WAP or FACT and pornography.  AA isn't a primary issue to many
>feminists, myself included.

If AA is not important then why the feminist movement invested
so much of its political power in maintaining it?

>Here are some more examples, as if we need them.  You perpetually use
>the word "feminist" to describe those people in favor of Affirmative
>Action.  

Do you know any non-feminist group that supports AA for women?
If not, why it is wrong to blame the feminist movement for what it pushes?

>way, it's not that you're so terribly wrong about Affirmative Action
>(although you are! **), it more that you're so stunningly ignorant and

After you ask all the zillion question, and after you explain to me that
AA is not important, it is important to *you* to tell me how wrong I'm 
about the subject.

It's a bad tactic, try to do better next time...

>and men, the simple fact that people view gender-based problems as the
>particular concerns of one gender or another, 

Therefore if men tell you that AA is a problem for them you realize that it's
just a gender base problem (only men complain) and tell them:
>AA isn't a primary issue to many feminists, myself included.

>is in itself a symptom of
>the multifaceted cancer we're so energetically trying to point out.

May be you try, but I'll tell you what the basic problem of the feminist 
movement: they (almost) never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity...


Hillel                                              gazit@cs.duke.edu

Until she laughed like harpsong
and said to him in scorn:
`I do not need a magic
to make you always mourn.

I send you home with nothing
except your memory
of moonlight, Outling music,
night breezes, dew, and me.

And that will run behind you,
and shadow on the sun,
and that will lie beside you
when every day is done.