Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cica!iuvax!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: jhpb@lancia.att.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Submission for soc-religion-christian Message-ID: Date: 22 Oct 89 17:32:48 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: AT&T Bell Labs (Liberty Corner) Lines: 142 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article kilroy@cs.umd.edu (Darren F. Provine) writes: Also, Mr. Green refers to snatches of Roman encyclicals in a few places, but he doesn't provide any substantive quotes -- can someone provide a `pointer to function returning doctrine' [ oops, too much programming lately 8-) ], ie, Some Official Book With Offical Pronouncements In It? (Is the _Summa Theologica_ official doctrine, or is it just highly regarded, or . . . ?) Here's a good one: Henry Denzinger's Enchiridion Symbolorum, AKA The Sources of Catholic Doctrine, available in English translation from Marian House Publishers, Powers Lake, North Dakota 58773. (That's all the address you need, the place is *small*.) It's a summary of Papal and Conciliar teaching up to the late 1950's. 650 pages complete with systematic and scriptural indices. The Summa is highly regarded; the council of Trent placed it on the altar with the Bible. It's not official, though, in the sense that a Papal encyclical is. But if one wants to study the Catholic religion in depth, the Summa is an excellent place to go. There's an English translation in print (Christian Classics). The sacrifice of Calvary was all-sufficient to obtain the necessary graces, but our Lord may distribute the graces however He wishes. The way that the graces are distributed to souls is the Mass and the Sacraments. In Catholic theology, faith == a grace whereby we unhesitatingly believe what God has revealed. One can't believe in the Divine revelation without grace: "No man can say the Lord Jesus, but by the Holy Ghost." "Flesh and blood have not revealed it to you, but my Father who is in Heaven." Salvation is "by faith" in the sense that one's salvation is grounded on their beliefs. But faith alone does not save anyone. Salvation is through the love of God. Since faith is a grace that is a completely free gift from God, a person's salvation is a completely free gift from God. One cannot deserve or earn Faith. The Catholic Church has the concept of "sanctifying" grace. Sanctifying grace is a quality that inheres in a person's soul, and is basically the image of the Blessed Trinity in a special, supernatural way. Everyone either has this image or doesn't. Persons who die with this grace in their souls are saved. A soul in a state of grace is more beautiful than the rest of the visible creation, is I think what one saint once said. Sacraments are outward signs instituted by Christ to give grace. They effect the grace that they symbolize, e.g., Baptism uses the symbolism of washing, and that's what it does to one's soul. The Sacraments were instituted by our Lord to either give or increase sanctifying grace. Baptism infuses sanctifying grace for the first time; the Sacrament of Penance restores it if one should lose it through serious sin. Holy Communion bestows the grace of greater detachment from common venial sins ("the just man falls seven times daily"), and the ability to not commit any serious sins. Mr. Green is mistaken in stating that the sacrifice of Calvary is insufficient; Catholic theology doesn't teach that. It earned all the necessary graces for everyone's salvation. The graces have to be applied to souls somehow -- that's what the Mass is for, sort of like so everyone can be at Calvary. The doctrine on the Mass is that the Sacrifice of the Cross is somehow re-presented to God in the Mass through the centuries. That the Mass involves human actions repeated in time is irrevelant. The central action of the Mass -- the double consecration -- is not a human act, but a Divine one. Looking at the symbolism, one can easily see the sacrificial aspect, from the Catholic point of view. The two consecrations (of the bread and of the wine) symbolize the separation of the Body and Blood of our Lord, thus, in some manner, which is not completely understood, it effects this. The exact metaphysics of all this are much disputed, and will probably never be completely worked out on this earth (much like the relationship between free will and grace). The Church has only defined things like "The Mass is a true and proper sacrifice"; it hasn't said exactly how this works. The definitive Catholic teaching on the Mass, grace, and the Sacraments is that of the council of Trent. The texts are in Denzinger. A good book to read on the subject of people like Mr. Green is "Catholicism and Fundamentalism". What happens is that a caricature of Catholic doctrine gets set up, and then knocked down, and people go away convinced that Catholicism is trivially erroneous. From the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation; for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts. Mal. 1:11 Joe Buehler [There are unfortunately differences in terminology that tend to obscure these discussions. While I do not claim that Catholics and Protestants agree on everything, it is useful to realize that they may be brought somewhat closer by being clear on what is being said. Joe says that faith alone does not save. I agree, when faith is defined as he defines it. Note that when Protestants use this term, they are using a broader definition of faith than Joe is. Joe's definition captures something important: the grace by which we believe. But faith to the Reformers had a much broader set of implications. There also seem to be differences in the way "grace" and "justification" are used. Thus the concept of grace coming through the sacraments may not mean quite what it sounds like to Protestants, which is that people can be saved without faith. I hope David Cruz-Uribe won't object to my repeating here a portion of his posting from talk.religion.misc. I believe it clarifies some of the differences in terminology that may otherwise obscure for Protestants what is being said by Catholics. (David is a Franciscan. The Rule he mentions is the rule of his order.) "... Salvation is a free gift from God, available to all. We are saved by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, "the gift of the Father's love" for us. (Quote again from the Rule.) However (and this is a very subtle point which I may mess up) the Catholic church draws a distinction between salvation and justification. Salvation is the act of our being saved from sin; justification is the process by which we learn the consequences of this salvific act. [Protestants would normally call this "santification" --clh] In particular, it is how we are protected from the further temptations of sin. "Salvation is primary and sufficient, justification is secondary. Both originate from God and are possible only by his grace. The key difference between salvation and justification is this: salvation is acheived entirely by God, requiring only my assent; justification is a co-operative process initiated by God. (This distinction may be moot: as St. Anselm said, "It pleases God to call our merits what are in fact His gifts.") "Catholics believe that the sacraments were established by God as fonts of grace for our _justification_. I am glossing over some important points involving baptism, etc., because I want to make one point _very_ clear: I am not "earning" my salvation by participating in the sacraments. The sacraments exist so that as living, breathing and most fallible mortals we have a visible means of growing ever closer to God." --clh]