Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: mike@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Michael I. Bushnell) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Catholics and Protestants on justification Message-ID: Date: 25 Oct 89 09:13:03 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of No Money, Albuquerque, New Mexico Lines: 61 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Here's my two cents on all this. In general, I hold somewhat to the views of the Reformers, and tend to Calvin where he differs with Luther. I do not, nay, firmly do not believe that we can *choose* to follow God or that God's acts of grace can be resisted. God is the sovreign, who is all-powerful in acheiving what he wants. It is not our free choice that keeps us from God's grace, it is, therefore, our faults. And these faults are faults we must bear the responsibility for. But the problem with the traditional view of election, and why most modern Protestants (including myself) disagree with its original formulation, is that it isn't *fair*. So where do we stand? On the weight of personal experience, I can say we do not choose to follow God, God chooses us. And, I see around me people God apparently did not choose. Where to go from here, and still salvage the idea of fairness? Well, I hold to asomewhat altered view of what it means to have faith. I would say that you can have faith without realizing it. That sounds a little strange, so let me give you an analogy. Suppose you grow up knowing a kind man in your neighborhood, Mr Smith. You see Mr Smith, and you have faith in his existence. Now, many decades later, you learn that Mr Smith is really Mr Jones. He was living under an assumed name with an assumed identity; in reality there never was a Mr Smith. You can certainly be said to have had faith in Mr Jones' existence, and yet you would never have acknowledged the existence of Mr Jones. Similarly, you *would* have acknowledged faith in Mr Smith's existence, and yet he never existed. So, your faith and your understanding of it differ. I believe that (get ready) all people have faith in God. They may not understand it, and they may not acknowledge it, but they have it. God chooses to be known, so some (those we call Christians) are given a faith that leads to profession and acknowledgement. This differs somewhat from the orthodox position, of course, but not seriously. It does not indicate that, really, very much of the doctrine of the Reformers be altered. -- Michael I. Bushnell \ This above all; to thine own self be true LIBERTE, EGALITE, FRATERNITE \ And it must follow, as the night the day, mike@unmvax.cs.unm.edu /\ Thou canst not be false to any man. Telephone: +1 505 292 0001 / \ Farewell: my blessing season this in thee! [Like many other Christians, I have a problem with the idea that from the foundation of the universe God intended most people to be damned. But I think we need stronger grounds than "it isn't fair", since it seems to me that Job, Romans 9, many of the Psalms, and some of Christ's parables (e.g. the laborers in the field, Mat 20, and the Prodigal Son) make it clear that God may not always be fair in any way that is visible to us. I think if you're going to take the view that God saves everyone, you are better off to argue from various statements that Christ died for all (e.g. Rom 5:18) than to raise "fairness" to some sort of axiom. Even then there are number of problems you have to deal with, if you want to be consistent with the Biblical view of judgement. --clh]