Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!wuarchive!gem.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!unmvax!aplcen!haven!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: cathy@gargoyle.uchicago.edu (Cathy Johnston) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Mortal Sins?? Message-ID: Date: 27 Oct 89 07:15:00 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: U. Chicago Computer Science Dept. Lines: 88 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu >From: garyf@mehlville.ncsa.uiuc.edu (Gary Faulkner) >I have a rather simple question, ... [stuff deleted] >...about the (7?) mortal sins. Any RC's out there want >to give some insight into what they are (neither one of us can even >remember them), what is meant by mortal - does it imply that you cannot >be forgiven these sins, even through the payment Christ made on the >cross? ... I think here that you have three different concepts rather mashed together here. You say this is stuff your wife remembers from childhood religious instructions. I would call this an example of the "Richard Stans Syndrome" -- a grammer-school child who recites the pledge of allegiance each morning finally asks the question which has been bothering him for a while, "Just who is Richard Stans?" As in "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. And to the republic for Richard Stans..." Which is to say: some of the religion you learned in childhood is *not* the religion you learned in childhood! :-) The first concept is mortal sin, which our faithful moderator has already commented on... I'll only add one thought, and that is that I take the distinction between mortal and venial sin as generally practical rather than some deep theology (as opposed to discussions of sin itself, which *are* much deeper). Mortal sin or venial sin are basically technical terms for the concept that there's big sins and little sins and that, while little sins are sins, but they're not *big* sins. The second concept is the "seven deadly sins". According to "New Webster's Universal Encyclopedia": Pride, covetousness, lust, envy, gluttony, anger and sloth. The traditional Christian list was already established by the 6th century and during the middle ages representations of the Seven Deadly Sins were a common feature of art and literature. Since I can never remember these, any subtle literary or artistic allusion to them is going to go right over *my* head! The third concept I'm thinking might be involved here might not be what your wife is thinking of at all... When I first read your posting, up popped a memory of something I was told long ago by some religion teacher, and had filed in my "richard stans" file as something I had misheard, misunderstood, or the teacher was wrong. This concept is that the only sin which is not forgivable is a sin against the Holy Spirit. Since my understanding of RCC doctrine is that *no* sin is outside the forgiveness of God, I knew that that wasn't a correct understanding of whatever I had heard... But anyway, this did give me a clue as to what to look up in the "Catholic Home Encyclopedia" (which my parents have had around for about 30 years). The following is probably a quote from A Catholic Dictionary, ed. Donald Attwater, 1931, 1949: Sins Against the Holy Ghost 2.) Six sins generally enumerated by medieval theologians, which can be considered in a special way against the Holy Ghost... The six sins are: despair of salvation, presumption on God's mercy, attacking the accepted truths of the Church, envy of another's spiritual goodness, obstinency in sin, and final impenitence. These six sins harden the sinner against the help of the Holy Ghost and make repentance difficult. I see this as a statement about the process of repentance much more than a statement about sin. Certain sins are more difficult to repent of not because of their seriousness per se, but because of the way they interfere with our ability to respond to the Holy Spirit's action that would draw us to repentance. As I said before, my understanding of RCC doctrine is that God's love and forgivenes are both all-emcompassing and unconditional (at least that's what my confessor tells me! :-) ) We've got lots of legal mumbo-jumbo on church practice, sacrements, etc. that tends to obscure this point, but basically, that is the position. Hope this has been useful to somebody! God bless, Cathy Johnston aka: cathy@gargoyle.uchicago.bitnet cathy@gargoyle.uchicago.edu [Note by the way that the distinction between mortal and venial sins is a specifically RC belief. Protestants consider any sin at all to merit eternal damnation, but recognize that the forgiveness we get from Christ covers them all. However the "sin against the Holy Ghost" is not specifically RC, though the specific listing of 6 such sins seems to be RC. The basic concept comes from the NT, e.g. Mark 3:29. Protestants have just as much trouble as Catholics figuring out what it is, and have generally come to the same conclusion: that if you want to be forgiven, this shows you haven't committed the unforgiveable sin. --clh]