Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!iuvax!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: smith_c@ncsatl.uucp (Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Star Trek theological dialogue: *WARNING* This is a long file Message-ID: Date: 30 Oct 89 03:35:50 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: National Computer Systems, Atlanta, GA Lines: 517 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu I'd like to apologize for the length of this file; I compiled this file from many different postings on rec.arts.startrek. I hope you find it interesting and I'm looking forward to your comments. Also, I'm still trying to get in touch with the Moderator. I hope it's okay to post this. Heh. I hope he doesn't take a hickory switch to me.... [uux ncsatl!administer-punishment -type hickory -repetitions 10 smith_c --clh] I would like to see a ST:TNG episode which dealt seriously with the question of Christian beliefs as they pertain to the otherworlders. Let's take a ficticious conversation among the crew of the new enterprise. RIKER: No, Worf, you wouldn't understand Jesus Christ at all. He wasn't a warrior; he preached love, peace, and the brotherhood of Man. He refused to fight. WORF: I believe I understand your Jesus Christ better than you, Commander. He was a warrior; did he not say, "I came not to bring peace, but a sword? To set mother against daughter, father against son, etc.? I understand him quite well. He was a warrior who was perfectly obedient to his commander, his God, who commanded him to walk into the jaws of death. This Yahweh God's reasons for giving the command are unclear to me, but your Yeshua, or Jesus, clearly understood the command and obeyed it to the letter, to the point of personal humiliation, excrutiating pain, and death. PICARD: "For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." WESLEY: Pardon me, Commander, but I'm confused about one thing: God loved the world, our world, the Earth. Did Jesus die for the sins of humans only or the sins of all beings throughout the galaxy and the universe? PICARD: I believe there's a lesson to be learned from the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth that anyone, of whatever species, can benefit from. WESLEY: But theologically, sir.... PICARD: The world, in this case, refers to the known world. At that time, the known world encompassed a very small area of the earth. The miracle of Christianity is its appeal to all peoples of all cultures all over the Earth, and indeed beyond the Earth. There are many nonhuman Christians. WORF: You messianists believe that one of your purposes is to spread your religion to other peoples, even those not of your own race? That is strange. RIKER: The common translation for Messianist is Christian; it's the more common term. WORF: Christian, then. If I were given an order, I would obey it, even unto death. Christianity is a religion Klingons can understand very well. RIKER: There's more to Christianity than obedience to God, Worf. Jesus, who is the only person ever to have been perfectly obedient to God, gave us something more, something we didn't deserve: Grace. It means that we are commanded to perfectly obey God but we can be forgiven for falling short of the glory of God. WORF: That is strange. Failure to obey should result in immediate punishment. Your God does not punish you for violating his laws? Well, this is getting a little in-depth. The point of the above excursion was to present the question of whether Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever, lived, died, and rose again for human beings or all beings through the universe. I'd like to see some of your responses to this question. *** I've received numerous responses to my earlier postings. To the negative responses, I make this reply: Nikos Kazantzakis (sp?), in response to the news that he had been excommunicated by the Greek Orthodox Church for writing the novel, "The Last Temptation of Christ," laughed and said he was absolutely delighted, to wit: "Great! That means they read the book!" Heh heh heh. Ahem. In reply to the positive responses, here's more: WORF: If your biographies of Jesus do not explicitly say so, how do you know he died for nonhumans? PICARD: Well....Many of Christianity's beliefs are implied. I can only say this: The first person Paul, or was it Philip, ever baptized was a eunuch. Such persons were considered impure at best, and not even human at worst. By this I suppose it can be implied that anyone can embrace Christ simply by asking to be baptized. RIKER: Of course, there's more than one type of baptism. If I recall my required comparitive theology courses, which the Academy requires along with learning about all the different cultures within the Federation, all the peoples with whom we must deal and live with -- as I recall, the early Church recognized three different kinds of baptism -- baptism by water and the spirit, of course, was first. Baptism by desire meant that you weren't damned just because you didn't know about Christ; your desire was for God and hence you were saved. And the last, I think they called baptism by blood. WORF: Ah! I'd like to hear more about this. RIKER: I believe baptism by blood meant that, even if you weren't baptized by water and the spirit, if your blood was spilled for your beliefs, if you died fighting for Christ, then you were baptized in your own blood. WORF: A warrior's death. I may look more closely into this Christianity. It has previously only been a hobby with me. DATA: Inquiry. You believe God, whomever or whatever you conceive him to be, created all peoples. I, however, was not created by God, but by Man [or whatever race designed him; pardon my lack of knowledge here]. God created human beings in his own image, or spiritual image might be the better translation; I do not have a tape of the original Hebrew, so I'm not sure. However, this seems to refer to living beings. As I am a machine, none of your beliefs, Christian or otherwise, would appear to apply to me. RIKER: I wouldn't say that, Data. Your desire to be human is strong. Your curiosity, your desire to know -- this makes you more human than any of us. Didn't Tasha tell you that? It says that God breathed into Adam the breath of life. John the Baptist said that God can make these stones turn into children of Abraham. Surely God can do the same for you. PICARD: God made people, of all races, in his spiritual image. If you have the presence of mind to ask the question, God will answer you. Who are we to say whom God chooses to make his children? DATA: How will God answer me? How will I know if he even exists? PICARD: Faith. It's....a difficult concept, Data. DATA: It does not sound logical. RIKER: Neither is being human. *** By the words of the Lord his works come into being and all creation obeys his will..... ....Pride of the heights, a clear vault of the sky -- such is the beauty of the heavens, a glorious sight. The sun, as he emerges, proclaims at his rising, "How wonderful a thing, the work of the Most High!" At his zenith, he parches the ground, who can withstand his blaze? We have to blow the furnace to produce any heat, the sun burns the mountains three times as much; breathing out blasts of fire, flashing his rays, he dazzles the eyes. Great is the Lord who created him and whose word speeds him on his course. And then the moon, ever punctual to mark the times, an everlasting sign: It is the moon that signals the feasts, a luminary that wanes after being full. The month derives its name from hers, she waxes wonderfully in her phases, banner of the hosts on high, shining in the vault of heaven. The glory of the stars makes the beauty of the sky, a brilliant adornment of the Lord on High. At the words of the Holy One they stand as he decrees, and never grow slack at their watch. -- Ecclesiasticus 43 *sigh* No one who has ever seen the Enterprise leaving the orbit of the Earth, seeing the Sun rise behind it, can remain unmoved by this passage from the Bible. At any rate, many people have complained, why single out Christianity, of all the religions on Earth? What about other religions? Well, you asked for it.... PICARD: Religion is a touchy subject at best. WORF: One thing puzzles me, Commander, about your beliefs. You will, of course, forgive me if I ask a question which offends you? PICARD: Of course, Worf. RIKER: That's what Christianity is all about. WORF: Very well, then. In the first place, if you are saved by this baptism by desire of yours, without knowing your Christ, then....why believe? PICARD: All faiths boil down to that question. For any faith, I'd say the reason you should believe is....because it's true. WORF: Believe it's true because the faith itself says it's true? DATA: That is a circular argument, sir. PICARD: Like Creation itself, Data. WORF: Very well, then. My second question. Why humans? Why the Earth? PICARD: I'm not sure I understand your question. WORF: You think Jesus is the only answer? PICARD: I can only respond by saying this: I don't have all the answers. RIKER: If he's your answer, more power to you. CRUSHER: Yet Christians believe that Jesus is the only Son of God. "I am the Way and the Door; there is no way to the Father except through Me." TROI: Jesus is not God's only revelation. The Bible, for example, is full of revelations from God in many different forms. As a counselor, it's my business to understand people's religious beliefs, since their beliefs often form an instrinsic part of their character; it defines who they are, even for people who deny the existence of a Creator/God. RIKER: But God only revealed himself to the people of Israel, according to their beliefs. TROI: Not so, Commander! There are cases in the Bible when Yahweh God speaks to nonbelievers. Once, I believe, he spoke to a prophet of Baal, a foreign god; the prophet of what the Israelites believed was a false god felt compelled to prophesy the truth of Yahweh; I think he said, "I must speak what Yahweh God commands me to speak." I seem to recall the king, an enemy of the Israelites, was somewhat less than pleased by the revelation. At any rate, the Bible never implies that it contains the only revelations from God. In fact, in the New Testament, the authors speak of the fulfillment of certain prophecies which are nowhere to be found in the Old Testament. CRUSHER: As a physician, it's also important for me to know about people's religious beliefs; those who believe they are being healed by God often recover faster than those who do not have such strong beliefs. Whether it's God or their own minds, their brains sending out signals to encourage the production of endorphins....whatever. Religious beliefs play a significant role the recovery of my patients. At any rate, what the Bible does say, at least in one person's interpretation, is that there are many prophecies of the coming Messiah, not all of which can be found in the Hebrew Scriptures. Remember the wise men from the East, the Orient? Probably students/masters of foreign religions, mystery religions of the Orient. The point, I think, is that the prophecies of the prophets of Israel, as well as the prophecies of other religions, all pointed to the Messiah of God, born in a cave in Bethlehem, the City of Bread. RIKER: I thought it was the City of David. CRUSHER: I was translating. Beth=house; lehem=bread; House of Bread. Jesus, far from being the only revelation of God, represents the fullness of God. And yes, Worf, according to Christian belief, Christ died for your sins, too. WORF: Then all of your old religions, and mine, are false? PICARD: (Swirling his glass) Religion is a touchy subject at best. TROI: (Coming to the rescue) Not in least, Worf. The one true God has many names. In the Exodus, for example, don't misunderstand the story. It is not a story of conflict between the people of Israel and the people of Egypt; nor between Moses and the Pharoah. Rather, it is a story of conflict between the God of Israel and the gods of Egypt. In those days, there was a belief that a god had power only in his own land. Carry the gods of Egypt (they were statues; idols) into Canaan, for example, and they were impotent; by the same token, carry the gods of Canaan to Egypt, and the gods of Canaan were impotent, powerless. CRUSHER: Yes, the power of a god was intimately connected to the land. Now the god, Yahweh, the god of Israel, was a god of the desert. As the story goes, when he heard the cries of distress of his people, he left the desert and entered into the land of Egypt, a land that some people would argue was not his own. Hence, he *should* have been powerless; but he wasn't. This is the power of the story. The mark of a true god was his ability to deliver his people. TROI: True. The Egyptian gods could perform various magical tricks through their priests, just as Moses and Aaron did for their god. The difference came when.... PICARD: ....When he smote the Egyptians. At the last, he slew every firstborn son of everyone in Egypt; the blood of the lamb over the doors of the Israelites exempted them from the wrath of the Angel of Death. WORF: Your god sounds like a Klingon. Are you sure you're not confusing this story with Klingon mythology? TROI: No, Worf. The point of the story is that the Egyptians prayed to their gods to deliver them from the wrath of the Hebrew god. But they couldn't; they were powerless before Yahweh. This is the beginning, the earliest human concept of a universal god. Yahweh God had power in every land because he made every land; he made the universe. All other gods were powerless before him and hence were proven to be false gods. PICARD: The gods of Egypt could not deliver their people. Yahweh delivered his people. It's a continuing theme in the Old Testament; how the people of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord, were punished by God, repented, and then God delivered them from the hand of oppression. Finally, the Messiah came and delivered the people of Israel, and all people who embrace Christ, from the oppression of sin and evil. WORF: We call the Creator/God K'Lah. K'Lah means "to be." TROI: Fascinating. Yahweh also means "to be." WORF: When we Klingons pray, we believe our God answers our prayers only if we submit ourselves to him. RIKER: How do you submit yourselves? WORF: We....In Klingon society, to throw down your weapon, to surrender, is the ultimate humiliation. We are warriors; we die fighting. Yet, before we pray, we....we cast down our weapons before our God. It is not....quite the same, yet it is. It is humiliating, yet....it is not. To surrender to one's God.....It is difficult to explain. RIKER: I think I understand, Worf. PICARD: I think I understand Klingons a little better, Worf. It's quite an insight. WORF: (murmering into his glass) To surrender....but only to God.... (Straightens; tightens his lips, breathes in deeply) Only the strong die young! (Downs his drink in one gulp) CRUSHER: In medieval pictures, Jesus is often portrayed in the stable with an Ox and and Ass nearby. Many don't realize the significance of the symbolism: These animals represent the gods of old breathing on the Messiah, the Christ of God, passing on all that they were, all that ever was, on the newborn king, God's perfect revelation. RIKER: But not the *last* revelation. PICARD: I certainly hope not. CRUSHER: Jesus only represents the fullness of God. RIKER: Only?!? TROI: It is not to denigrate other revelations to say that Christ represents the fullness of God. RIKER: In that case, the Buddha, Muhammed, Lao Tze, Kahless of Klingon, even Surak of Vulcan....these were all prophets of God. Each brought to his world words that his people needed survive; this isn't incompatible with the belief that Christ is the fullness of God. CRUSHER: I seem to recall an ancient Earth author, umm, C.S. Lewis, I think his name was, basically treating ancient earth mythologies as being vague prophetic distortions of the Coming Messiah and the One True God. TROI: And the Word is still spreading. Even now. WORF: I thought prophets were fortune tellers. TROI: They often predicted the future, but that was minor function. The job description of a prophet was simply this: Reveal the word of God. They were often anything but fortune tellers. WORF: None of you has answered my original question: Do you not think you are being incredibly arrogant to presume that God's perfect revelation would occur on Earth, among a small, insignificant collection of desert tribes, who were, after all, occupied by a much more powerful warrior kingdom -- the Romans? PICARD: (softly, into his glass) We merged. That's why it's called the Roman Catholic Church. WORF: Nonetheless: What is so special about humans? the Israelites? PICARD: (Thoughtfully) The Israelites were a bloodthirsty lot; fierce, nomadic, desert warriors. In the Bible, it says they used to dedicate cities to Yahweh, their god: That means they'd destroy a city right down to its foundations, kill all the livestock, destroy all the possessions of the city, gold, silver, anything of value; they'd kill every man, woman, and child, even babes in their mothers arms. Then they'd burn the city to the ground in a holocaust, a whole-burnt offering to God; and the desert would swallow it up and a whole community was wiped off the face of the Earth. Humans are bloodthirsty creatures; covenants between God and Man are considered invalid unless they are sealed in blood. The Christ covenant was sealed in the blood of the Cross. Think of the Crusades, all the revolutionary wars, the War of Roses, the first World War, the second World War, and, of course, World War III, the Eugenics Wars. Why humanity, Worf? Not because we're superior, I can assure you of that. Hm. I think it's because we're the worst. Yes, I think that's it. I think God chose humanity, and the Israelites in particular, to reveal himself in Christ because, of all the worlds in all of God's creation, we..... ....we were the most in *need* of redemption. WORF: Even over Klingons? PICARD: Even over Klingons. WORF: You humans certainly think highly of yourselves. PICARD: Hm. *** Star Trek is an entertaining show. Roddenberry puts these issues on the air for people to think about; I wouldn't be surprised if he were delighted to learn that people are talking about the issues he raises. In "The Savage Curtain" Spock says, "When I beheld you [Surak], I displayed emotion. I beg forgiveness." This shows that Vulcans have a concept of sin and redemption, as Surak responds, "The cause was more than sufficient." Surak refuses to fight but he willing walks into the enemy camp in an attempt to make peace. Kirk admires this even if he disagrees, although not fundamentally, with Surak's philosophy of nonviolence. Kirk says, "He's a brave man." Spock replies, "Men of peace usually are." The original episode called for the appearance of the Image of Jesus Christ; however, the producers felt this was too controversial and instead invented an ancient Vulcan philosopher, Surak. The similarities between Surak being tied to a stake and tortured to death and Christ being nailed to a stake in the form of a cross and tortured to death can't be missed. The remark Kirk made about Lincoln's death, "It was terrible....to have to watch him die again" was originally aimed at Christ, but was eventually reassigned to Lincoln. At any rate, Spock shows deference to Surak even as he tells him, "The Captain knows I have fought at his side before and will do so again." Let's look at this in another context. JESUS CHRIST: (to Kirk) I will not fight. I will attempt to make peace. Thou shalt not commit murder. KIRK: That's just it, Jesus. Down through the centuries, especially in the Old Testament, self-defense has always been a valid reason for killing. SPOCK: In ancient Hebrew, there are two words: One means to kill, as an animal or an enemy on the battle field. The other word means to commit murder. Hebrew and English both make the same logical distinction between these terms. In the Ten Commandments, the injunction is not against killing, but rather against murder. LINCOLN: In my time, I was President during the four bloodiest years of my country's history. I gave orders which sent thousands of men to their deaths at the hands of their brothers. JESUS CHRIST: You will love your neighbor as you love yourself. Love your enemies. Do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who persecute you. LINCOLN: Even if it means the destruction of our beliefs? What if it meant the wiping out of all belief in you? Would you still offer no resistance? JESUS CHRIST: If no one in the universe believed I am the Son of God, I would be saddened, but I would still be the Son of God. Christians offered no resistance for centuries and only grew stronger. Speak your mind and allow the sin to fall upon their heads. And pray for them. KIRK: (quietly) I must fight. For myself, for the safety of my crew. I will not lie down; I will not go quietly. I believe in what you say: Peace is the right way. But this is the wrong time. If we don't fight, we'll die. And it won't just be my own death that's on my conscience. JESUS CHRIST: I died so no one else would have to die. Ever again. If you really believed that, you wouldn't fight. KIRK: My desire to live in this world is too strong. I'm sorry....(copying Spock here)....Image of Jesus. I can't tell you what to do. If you want to go and try to make peace, go. I can't stop you. But I've got weapons to make and strategies to plan. JESUS CHRIST: The folly of human nature. Peace be with you, my brothers. (Leaves to try to make peace with Col. Green and Company) -- Standard Disclaimer: These are my soul opinions, heartfelt and passionately expressed. They do not reflect the opinions of National Computer Systems, whatever *they* might be.... | Sincerely, * * * | "Mankind has no * * IDIC IN|RI need for gods SPAWN OF A * ***___*_____ ------------- anymore. We find JEWISH * *** * / Two symbols of | the One quite CARPENTER * ***\ * / universal | sufficient." * \* / brotherhood | * * * \ / | -- Captain Kirk gatech!ncsatl!smith_c \/ | WHO MOURNS FOR ADONIS?