Path: utzoo!mnetor!tmsoft!torsqnt!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!njin!princeton!udel!wuarchive!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!datapg!com50!com2serv!craig From: craig@com2serv.C2S.MN.ORG (Craig S. Wilson) Newsgroups: news.groups Subject: Re: Give it up, folks Summary: loooooonggggg..... Message-ID: <3035@com50.C2S.MN.ORG> Date: 17 Nov 89 20:52:00 GMT References: <127839@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> <36442@apple.Apple.COM> <3016@com50.C2S.MN.ORG> <395@scorn.sco.COM> Sender: nntp@com50.C2S.MN.ORG Reply-To: craig@com2serv.c2s.mn.org (Craig S. Wilson) Organization: Com Squared Systems, Mendota Heights, MN Lines: 123 In article <395@scorn.sco.COM> davidbe@sco.COM (The Cat in the Hat) writes: > >news.groups's own craig@com2serv.c2s.mn.org (Craig S. Wilson) said: >- >-Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with what happened with all of this >-fish crap. But, if we are gonna change the voting system for >-newsgroup creation, let's do it right. Let's give each site one vote >-and let the sys admin or designate cast that vote. Simple majority >-rules. It is the systems administrators, acting on behalf of the >-machine owners, who have the responsibility for keeping the Usenet >-running and bear the cost of doing so. They should have the responsibility >-and authority to determine how it runs. > >Ok...some of these points have been brought up before, but they bear repeating: > >1) What is a site? We've got people reading news on over 100 machines here >at SCO. Does the admin for each machine get to vote? Or just the "admin" >for the uucp hub? > If it handles news and is registered, it would appear to be a site. >2) What is a sys admin or designate? Is it the person listed in the UUCP map >entry? Is the person who's making news work on the system? Is it anyone >with a root password? > That really can worked out at the site. As long as only one person from a registered site attempts to vote. All of the other squabbling can be handled internally, where it belongs. Multiple votes from one site could cause revocation of voting privileges. >3) What about my machine at home? I get news there...I'm the only one who >reads it, but, as you say, it's the sysadmins who should "determine how it >runs". And frankly, I've got so little disk space, I don't think anymore >newsgroups should be created. Ever. And let's start removing newsgroups >too...who really needs comp.sys.. > See Number 1 above. >3.5) What about a machine at home. Should a site that only gets a small >feed have the same rights as, say, uunet? Yes? Weird. > I knew that this argument would rear its head. But, yes, I am saying that each registered site gets one vote. Backbone or leaf site, doesn't matter. This is no stranger than giving a vote to every reader when surely some do far more to keep the news flowing than others. Is the system I propose any weirder than the current one? I don't think so. I personally feel that every non-leaf site should be required to carry a full feed if they carry news. That would reduce the problems related to one hiearchy getting better distribution than another. >4) What about (dare I ask) forgeries? With one vote representing (perhaps >falsely) the will of 1-1000 people, this could start to make a large >difference. > Actually, I believe that forgeries and fake votes would be more difficult given the proposed system. See Number 2 above. If multiple votes come in from one site and the real vote cannot be determined, disregard all votes from that site. The system administrator would have the responsibility of determining the source of the counterfeit votes. And it would behoove the other administrators to assist in the search. >5) And what about all the non-admins who make a difference. Voting may just >be an illusion of democracy, but I (for one) want that illusion maintained. >And so do a number of other people. > I didn't say that there wouldn't be discussion by everyone. And actually, the proposed system, known as representational democracy, would be closer to what we have in most of the "democractic" countries. Do you vote on most laws or regulations that affect you? No, you elect representatives to do that for you. Do you vote for the President of the United States? No! Your voting decides which Presidential Elector from your state gets to vote in the Electoral College and what your preference is w.r.t. that person's vote. The elector can vote for whoever when the time comes. So much for "democracy". >6) Suppose there's no worry about 1, 2, 4 or 5. Some company has 1 >machine, no NNTP, and only 1 person with root access. No suppose that >person just has no time to read anything other than a few newsgroups >(as in reads news.announce.newgroups, but not news.groups). Can they >make an informed vote about sci.sushi.farming? Or about comp.oops? >But they may wind up voting anyway. Uninformed voting is bad for the >net. Sounds a lot like the current system, except that the odds are that a greater percentage of the current system's voters will be uninformed than in the proposed system. I am sure that many of the aquaria voters were not cognizant of the ramifications of their vote. They just wanted an aquaria group. I am presuming that if the system administrator does not have the time or inclination to perform the task of voting, that system administrator will designate someone who is willing and able to perform it. > >There is no fair way to run anything that consists of differently sized >and priced units. This system is far from the best, but it's important >to note that the siteadmin has ultimate veto power at their site, simply >by not carrying (and fascisticly) not passing the group. The people who have responsibility for paying the bills have the ultimate veto power. They should be the ones who determine how their resources are used. If you don't like how you are being treated at a site, buy a machine. Get registered and vote. Once you start paying for computer resources, modems, phone lines, etc., you will be more concerned about how those resources are being used. >-- > David Bedno, Systems Administrator, The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. /craig Craig S. Wilson | Democracy |{amdahl|hpda}!bungia!com50!craig Com Squared Systems, Inc | is not a |craig@c2s.mn.org 2520 Pilot Knob Road | spectator |(612) 452-9522 voice Mendota Heights MN 55120 | sport. |(612) 452-3607 fax