Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!ucsd!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!bloom-beacon!ora!daemon
From: gazit@cs.duke.edu
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: AA, continued
Summary: Sometimes I have to *spell* it.
Message-ID: <190@ora.ora.com>
Date: 14 Nov 89 21:09:48 GMT
References: <16042@duke.cs.duke.edu> <6625@columbia.edu>
Sender: ambar@ora.ora.com
Reply-To: gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel)
Followup-To: soc.men
Organization: The Piranha Club
Lines: 81
Approved: ambar@ora.com

[Note: followups are set to soc.men, as per Hillel's request -- AMBAR]

In article <2790@cbnewsl.ATT.COM> (Damballah Wedo) writes:
#I am a strong supporter of Affirmative Action. Yet I am strongly 
#opposed to lowering job/promotion requirements to enhance
#representation of affected class members.
#
#I do think the requirements should be examined carefully to determine
#whether they are truly relevant or just expressions of sexist

In article <6625@columbia.edu> (Travis Lee Winfrey) writes:

>Hillel, do you claim that there is discrimination based on
>race/gender, that this discrimination is wrong, but that any solution
>seeking to redress these wrongs should not ask about race or gender?

Exactly.

Wedo had claimed that he does not want to lower the requirements,
just to cross out those which are sexist/racist.

I say "fine with me, write and *publish* your requirements and we will
check them using *small* random samples".  Every AA program that I've
heard about asks about the race/sex of every applicant.  IMO they ask about
race/sex because the decisions are based on race/sex and not on
that ideal non-sexist set, and this is discrimination.

Let's give you an example.

It was repeatedly claimed that the Verbal test discriminate against women
because there are questions which are based on technical knowledge.
Let's assume that the claim is true.

There are two ways to fix it:
1) Add some points to the score of women.
2) Ask more about "feminine" subjects.

Way one punishes men with "feminine" properties (prefer to cook
and not to fix the car), and helps women with "masculine" properties
(prefer to fix the car and not to cook).

Way two helps people with "feminine" properties regardless of their sex.

For way one you need to know the sex of everyone who takes the test.
For way two you can take small random samples to check
that the scores are not skewed.

I prefer way two.  Which way do you prefer and why?
Which way the AA programs that ask about the sex/race of every
applicant prefer and *why*?

>Although this thread seems to veer off into the wings, I do want to
>correct your mistaken impression that the 1929 Depression was caused
>by insider trading, 

That's not what I had said.  

>or that insider trading is a failure of Capitalism per se.  

The basic axiom of capitalism is that if everyone works for his/her
benefit the society in large benefits from it.

The inside traders worked for their benefit, and the society in large was harmed
by it.  Since the old capitalist system had permitted it, it had been a failure
of the old system.

>It is interesting that this confusion of yours corresponds directly to
>your disdainful view of affirmative action implementations.

It is interesting that this preference of yours to discuss my "confusion"
corresponds directly to the weakness of your position...

Let's continue to debate on that last subject in an unmoderated group.
(Follow-up is set to soc.men.)

Hillel                                          gazit@cs.duke.edu

The Army has carried the American ... ideal to its logical conclusion.
Not only do they prohibit discrimination on the grounds of race, creed
and color, but also on ability.
		-- T. Lehrer