Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: raf@prc.unisys.com (Ralph A. Foy) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: transubstantiation again - some real concerns Message-ID: Date: 13 Nov 89 16:58:22 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 96 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu As a quasi-Catholic, I thought I would share some of my understandings on this topic. BIG DISCLAIMER: I do not profess to hava any expertise, and am typing from the top of my head as what I think generally accepted Catholic doctrine states, unless I say otherwise. If anything seems particularly bizzare, don't blame Catholicism immediately--it may just be my ignorace, which can only be blamed on me.. Oh, I can't spell too good eithre. > I understand a sacrament as some action our Lord commands us to do, > or basically implied by His words in obedience to Him. We understand a sacrament to be an act which we recognize Christ's presence in a real, but special way. In a sense every moment should be sacramental, insofar as Christ is always with us; however we recognize seven sacramental rituals which are "formal" celebrations in which the community celebrates as a Church Sacrament. They are: 1. Baptism 2. Confirmation 3. Matrimony 4. Holy Orders 5. Reconciliation 6. Annointing of the Sick 7. Christian Burial > As a charasmatic protestant with no church ties(i have one fish tie:-) > just kidding, i read the nt communion of our Lord to be a memmorial > and not a continous sacrifice, but i can find backing for this in > Hebrews and Romans, if read as a child. Don't have a Bible at my desk (mea culpa), but I think one key scripture in Catholic understanding is the Road to Emmaus story; since the two men were not at the Last Supper, the breaking of the bread just a memorial wouldn't make sense since they weren't there to remember. But there in the breaking of the bread the reality of Christ's presence was found. > The priest is empowered(catholic doctrine) to call down Jesus into the > wafer, toenails and all at his consecration(if his intent is correct), > right? Well, putting a little sarcasm aside for the moment... just to clarify, the issue of intent is there not as a necessary and sufficient clause ("well, Father was thinking about the ballgame while he mumbled the words of institiution, so it doesnt count"--no), but rather a kind of escape clause if something goes wrong... cases when the sacristan accidentally uses a cruet of vinegar instead of wine, even one I heard of where grape juice was used (no-no in Catholic church). Since the intent was there, God isn't limited by the legal technicalities (officially it is "valid, but illicit"--violates the rules, but still valid). > Now the church(catholic) would say that he can do this everytime > and God guarantees it, because He ordained it. > God(Jesus) also ordained us to heal the sick (another sacrament) and > such. > Now, how can the priest presume that Jesus is in the wafer everytime > with a guarantee, yet he cannot heal the sick everytime with a > guarantee. The Sacrament of the Annointing of the Sick is not faith healing. Think of it this way--when we reach out to comfort the sick, we reach out to Christ (whatever you do to the least of these, you do to me). When a person comforts me, he or she helps bring to comfort of Christ (where two or three are gathered in my name, I am in your midst). The Sacrament of Annoint seeks primarily spiritual healing, comfort and peace; yes it prays for physical healing, but asks mostly that we find comfort in the midst of our suffering in Christ. > Remember now, this is the same priest who says he has the > power to make the wafer into Jesus. I believe that in the wafer we > cannot see Jesus there, but "must take it on faith", but with another > sacrament, heal the sick, this cannot be pulled off with the same > "take it on faith" assurance precisely because we can see a healing. see above > Could God in His wisdom be showing us (priests, and laity) that no > human can guarantee "anything" in the name of God(Jesus), and proves > it by "not" healing people at every prayer of a priest or congregation > no matter "how" sincere. This to me should humble alot of priests, > bishops, cardinals, popes, believers, or what have you, and send up > red flags everywhere when someone claims they can control God, or they > have some secret power that others do not have, it's a mystery thing. No one guarantees anything. Christ is made present. The love of God is celebrated. The Spirit is invited to fill our hearts and minds. These rituals are not magic shows, just special celebrations where the community prays. As I said before, we should see every moment as a sacrament, but on those special occasions, birth (and re-birth), maturity, matrimony, illness, death, reconciliation, and consecration to pesbyteral ministry, the Catholic Community gathers together to celebrate God's presence. > Barry olson ralph Foy ----------