Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!wuarchive!psuvax1!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: wcsa@iwtdr.att.com (Willard C Smith) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Once Saved Always Saved Summary: If Grace can be Resisted then the Assurance of Salvation is not Logically Compatible Message-ID: Date: 15 Nov 89 08:10:16 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Lines: 40 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , davidbu@tekigm2.men.tek.com (David Buxton) writes: >So, I wonder if there is anyone who subscribes to the Arminian view and >at the same time subscribes to "once saved always saved"? I think that it would be possible to accept "once saved always saved" (the Assurance of Salvation idea) if and only if one ultimately rejected Free Will. I've heard lots of Fundie types argue Free Will and Assurance of Salvation, but it appears to arise from the lack of reflection rather than any firm theological basis. When I have confronted those individuals with the contradictory point (Free Will implys that Grace can be resisted), they either go into self-denial mode or Reject Free Will. One fundie attempted to escape the dilemma by telling me that after one accepted Christ, their Free Will was done away with. All that does is emphasis the contradiction, ie. Grace can be resisted, but Grace cannot be resisted. In short, I believe that it is logical contradiction to accept Free Will and Assurance of Salvation. If someone could reconcile the contradiction, there would probably be a zillion grateful people out there who could then *truely* argue (for the first time) that works could be a "fruit" of faith. -- 1100 E. Warrenville Rd., Naperville, IL Willard C. Smith (708) 979-0024 att!iwtdr!wcsa "It's life, Captain, but not as we know it." [Let's distinguish two ideas: "Perseverence" is the idea that when someone has been chosen by God there is no way he can lose that status. This is probably what "once saved always saved" refers to. "Assurance of salvation" means that people who are saved know that they are saved, and have complete confidence in their salvation. These doctrines are not identical. It would be possible to believe that election is forever, but that those who are elect are still subject to doubts and fears, and so do not necessarily have assurance of salvation. Similarly, it appears that John Wesley -- particularly early in his career -- believed that the Christian experience normally includes a supernatural assurance of salvation, but did not believe in perserverence in the usual sense. --clh]