Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!wuarchive!psuvax1!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: bnr-fos!bmers58!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Once Saved Always Saved Message-ID: Date: 15 Nov 89 08:56:51 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada Lines: 142 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article davidbu@tekigm2.men.tek.com (David Buxton) writes: >I would like to see some discussion on both sides of this, on s.r.c. I realize that you specifically stated that you did not want to hear from one who believed in predestination because one who does believe in predestination has to believe in the impossibility of losing one's salvation. I am one who most definitely believes in predestination, so I hope you will forgive me for responding. I shall not even raise the topic when discussing the question you raised. I shall stick to your question and only use the Scriptures as a basis for discussion. A person's position with respect to one doctrin must never impact his position with respect to another because he should not use his own reasoning to link the two. If he cannot defend either position on its own then he is using more than the Word of God, i.e. his own faulty human reasoning, and that is something we are warned not to do. The two different topics must be individually assessed. Then, if we dare, we may try to understand God's reasoning for having done it that way. John 3:14-15 says "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.". This passage clearly says that as soon as someone believes in Jesus he has eternal life. If a person were able to lose his salvation then Jesus would not have been able to state so definitely that that person had eternal life. Eternal life cannot end. A person can only have eternal life if there is no further possibility of it ever ending. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says "For he hath made him {to be} sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.". If Jesus became sin for me then what sin could I possibly commit that His blood does not cover? The Scriptures do teach that there is one sin, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which cannot be forgiven. This particular sin is described as claiming that Jesus derived His power from Satan. If an unsaved person ever does this then God would not save him. A saved person, knowing full well that his salvation is from God, would never make this claim. All other sins, including every possible sin that a saved person might ever commit, are forgivable. The blood of Jesus pays for all of a saved person's sins. Even if the loss of salvation were a real possibility, there is nothing that a saved person could ever do to cause its loss. There is also certainly nothing that God would do to cause its loss. Ephesians 1:13-14 (earnest means guarantee) says "In whom ye also {trusted}, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.". This passage alone tells us many things. This single passage tells us many things. God has purchased those who receive salvation. There is no Scripture in the entire Bible where He says that He will ever sell us. The Holy Spirit is the guarantee that we shall receive our inheritance. Our inheritance is eternal life. This guarantee is good until the day of redemption, i.e. until we enter heaven. The Holy Spirit, being God Himself, never breaks a promise. This fact alone indicates that salvation cannot be lost. The reason we become saved is to bring praise to God's glory. He wouldn't bring too much praise to His glory if He were to fail at even one task. If He were to save someone, only to have that person subsequently lose His salvation, then God would look a little impotent and, thereby, lose esteem in the eyes of others, especially Satan. We must never forget that the real battle is between God and Satan. Saved people belong to God's army and unsaved people and the fallen angels belong to Satan's army. God fully intends to win and not suffer any losses. Having it any other way would not be doing all to the glory of God, and God Himself obeys every single one of His own commandments. 1 Corinthians 10:31 says "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.". Back to Ephesians 1:13-14. We become sealed by the Holy Spirit at the point when we receive salvation. We can, therefore, not lose our salvation until that seal is broken. A further search of the Scriptures is necessary to find out exactly what it would take to break this seal. Ephesians 4:30 says "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.". Our seal by the Holy Spirit will also last until the day of redemption. We need not fear the loss of our salvation from the time we become saved until we enter heaven. I do not believe that I need to prove that we need not fear being tossed out of heaven. We need not, therefore, ever fear the loss of our salvation. There are a few Scriptures which many people use to attempt to show that salvation can be lost. I shall select the one which appears to state this fact the most strongly and then show why this would be an incorrect interpretation of it. Hebrews 6:4-6 says "For {it is} impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put {him} to an open shame.". Anyone who reads this Scripture and does not check out its context would be left with the feeling that its meaning is obvious. Since the Bible teaches that salvation cannot be lost, this should be a clue that the apparently obvious meaning of such a Scripture is not what it is really saying. With this particular Scripture, all one need do is read the rest of the chapter. Hebrews 6:9 says "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.". In other words, this verse is telling us that the preceding verses were referring to something less than salvation. The chapter goes on to describe how salvation is the result of a divine promise, and states that God never breaks a promise because He never tells a lie. In this same chapter God goes out of His way to illustrate the extra special nature of the promise of salvation by reminding us that He did something that He did not really have to do. Usually God just declares something and we believe it. In this case, though, He took the unusual step of swaring by an oath that He would keep this particular promise. If the retention of our salvation depended, even minutely, on our ability to hang onto it, then the declarations that we can have the assurance of our salvation would be a complete mockery because no one of us possesses the ability to continually be worthy of it. We do not know when we will die, and our strength is likely to be at its lowest level at the point of death because of all the suffering that usually accompanies it. With this in mind, I would like to conclude by quoting a couple of those Scriptures which, being the Word of God, we know we can take seriously. Romans 8:15-17 says "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with {him}, that we may be also glorified together.". 1 John 5:13 says "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.". Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3