Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!hoptoad!tim
From: tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: Tail patches
Message-ID: <9041@hoptoad.uucp>
Date: 21 Nov 89 23:32:35 GMT
References: <5212@internal.Apple.COM> <32982@mirror.UUCP> <5248@internal.Apple.COM> <9012@hoptoad.uucp> <5296@internal.Apple.COM>
Reply-To: tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney)
Organization: Eclectic Software, San Francisco
Lines: 80

In article <5248@internal.Apple.COM> chewy@apple.com (Paul Snively) writes:
>I have no problems with explaining why not to do certain things; that's 
>(unfortunately) a large part of my job.  I DO have problems with 
>explaining why not to do certain things and having people ignore me or 
>argue with me about it.
 
In article <9012@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes:
> Yeah, can you believe the gall of some of these people?  I mean, actually
> daring to disagree with you!  Who do they think they are?

In article <5296@internal.Apple.COM> chewy@apple.com (Paul Snively) writes:
>Let me try to be clearer: what I have a problem with is having explained, 
>in some detail, with support from others here at Apple, why doing 
>something is not merely a bad idea, but just plain wrong, and having 
>people who aren't as experienced or as well-informed about how the 
>Macintosh works tell me that it's NOT wrong.

But Paul, you are missing the point.  Every case I've seen here where
people argue with you is because you have *not* raised any compelling
argument.  It seems you want us all to put "DTS said it, that settles
it, and I believe it" bumper stickers on our cars.  I am referring only
to you; most other Apple employees here have much better network
manners.  You, however, specialize in responses which are inane and
peremptory; for example, your messages on tail patches that nowhere
included a technical explanation of the problem with them, or your
message on file ids that completely ignored every point I raised (as
some other posters noted at the time).

Another good example would be the current discussion of things that
Apple has broken.  At first, your position was one of shocked outrage
that anyone would suggest such a thing had ever happened.  Now that
people have provided a number of irrefutable examples, you have not
apologized for earlier questioning their competence or veracity;
instead, we are supposed to believe that your position all along has
been what you just changed it to, that Apple does break things
sometimes but it has good reasons to do so.  And then you've tossed in
some more inane arguments just to confirm that no one should treat you
seriously, such as saying that developers should not pay attention to
explicit instructions in Inside Macintosh.

You seem to have forgotten that a job in Developer Relations is a job
in Public Relations; it is not the pulpit of Jonathan Edwards.  As a
result, you are breeding ill-will towards Apple, and people are coming
to ignore your conclusions even in the very rare cases where you
sincerely try to prove them correct.

>The function of my department is to help people create good, reliable
>Macintosh software.

And to maintain good relations with the developer comunity, which by
nature involves taking seriously objections raised by those
developers.  Instead, you contemptuously dismiss the complaints without
dealing honestly with their substance, and you dismiss the complainers
themselves as "people who aren't as experienced or as well-informed
about how the Macintosh works".  This is highly obnoxious behavior.

>Perhaps I'm like an army drill sargeant or something: I'm harsh, I'm
>stern, I'm a pain in the ass, but it's all to benefit the person being
>disciplined.

Gee, Daddy, thanks a lot.

>When Macintosh software follows the rules, Apple benefits,
>the developer benefits, and most importantly, the user benefits.

And when "the rules" are handed down as infallible and inarguable fiats
from on high, Apple's image suffers, the developers ignore the rules,
and the user suffers.  If you imagine that your behavior here is in
any way likely to increase the probability of anyone following the
rules, you are deluding yourself.
-- 
Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a
 really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually
 change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again.
 They really do it.  It doesn't happen as often as it should, because
 scientists are human and change is sometimes painful.  But it happens
 every day.  I cannot recall the last time something like that happened
 in politics or religion." -- Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP keynote address