Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!uwm.edu!psuvax1!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: jamesa@amadeus.wr.tek.com (James Akiyama) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Once Saved Always Saved Message-ID: Date: 24 Nov 89 03:28:03 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR. Lines: 126 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu The doctrine of "predestination" and "eternal security" have always seemed to go together. I should mention that I come from a "Calvinist" background, but, over the years, have shifted my views somewhat. I believe that there is freewill in mankind, but that no man will, of himself, come into God's grace. If we did we would have, however small, a reason to boast--that our salvation was partly based on our deeds. I believe that God calls those who he chooses to save; as seen in Romans 9:18-22: Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? (New International Version) In my opinion, God calls those whom He wants by revealing His glory. I believe that this is what is being said in Hebrews 6:4-6: It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace (New International Version). Hebrews is saying that God will only call a man once. In the calling, God reveals Himself to man; even to the point of letting the person "taste the fruits of the Spirit". I believe, however, that there is a difference between "tasting" and "being filled". The people sighted in the example in Hebrews is someone whom God revealed Himself but did not come into the faith. In other words, God bestowed the gift of grace on the person, but the person refused the gift. It is for this reason that God cannot re-reveal Himself, as this would require a second crucifixion of Christ. Note that the person would have shown signs of a believer (tasting the heavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit, etc.), but never made a commitment to die to himself and live for Christ, as given in Luke 14:26-33: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple. And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. "Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, saying, 'This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.' "Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple. (New International Version) Hebrews seems to make clear that he never had salvation, as given later in Hebrews 6:9: Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case--things that accompany salvation (New International Version). I suggest reading Hebrews in context for a better view. Note that there seems to be some interplay of freewill here. The fact that God has revealed Himself, but the person chooses whether to follow or not. What I'm not sure about is how much God influences that choice. Romans 9:19 seems to indicate that we can't resist His will: One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" Of course there are numerous other passages which seem to indicate that we do have some choice. Now, does the person from Hebrews 6 believe in God? Of course he does. Who wouldn't after tasting God's gift. But belief does not yield salvation, as stated in James 2:19: You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. Clearly the demons are not saved. Salvation comes not through belief, but through faith. Belief is acknowledging that God exists; faith is to place your trust in God (by dying to yourself and living for God). At this point, your old self dies; as given in 2 Corinthians 5:17: Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! (New International Version) I find it difficult how we could (or why God would) resurrect the old self from death back into life. In fact, several passages seem to indicate that we can't fall away; such as Romans 8:35-39: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Since we are created beings, we are included in the things Paul gives as being incapable of separating us from God's love. I should mention that my views here are still in the process of being formulated. I hope that this will shed some light on others so that they can, in turn, shed some light to me. James E. Akiyama jamesa@amadeus.WR.TEK.COM UUCP: ....!uunet!tektronix!amadeus.WR.TEK.COM!jamesa ARPA: @RELAY.CS.NET:jamesa%amadeus.WR.TEK.COM