Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!cs.utexas.edu!usc!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!psuvax1!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: bnr-fos!bmers58!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Once Saved Always Saved Message-ID: Date: 24 Nov 89 03:31:17 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada Lines: 159 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article davidbu@tekigm2.men.tek.com (David Buxton) writes: >Two parables come to mind when considering 'once saved always saved': > >* The ten virgins waiting for the bride-groom. Ten were apparantly 'saved' > but 5 let their supply of 'oil' run out. In Matthew 25:1-12 Jesus says "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five {were} foolish. They that {were} foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, {Not so}; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.". All the virgins were most definitely not saved. The five wise virgins were saved. Proverbs 9:10 says "The fear of the LORD {is} the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy {is} understanding.". The five foolish virgins, however, were not saved. Psalm 14:1 says "The fool hath said in his heart, {There is} no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, {there is} none that doeth good.". Aside from letting God define His own terms, the fact that only five virgins were saved can be seen in a different way too. The only ones who had oil were the five wise virgins. The five foolish virgins did not have oil. If you use a good concordance and research all the references to oil you will see that God uses oil as a figure of the Holy Spirit. This is why, for example, the high priests and the kings were annointed with oil before they began their duties. Note that Jesus, the real king and high priest, was not annointed with oil; He was annointed with the Holy Spirit which descended upon Him in the form of a dove (Mark 1:10). A person who has no oil, i.e. has not been indwelt by the Holy Spirit, is not saved. Romans 8:9 says "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.". Note also that the bridegroom, who is a figure of Christ, told the five foolish virgins that he did not know them. If he had invited them then he would have known them. This, too, is a definite statement that they were never saved in the first place. >* The seed that fell among several different types of soil. Of all the > seed of the gospel that sprouted not all grew to full maturity. A lot > of it withered and died. Matthew 13:3-8 says "And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; And when he sowed, some {seeds} fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.". In Matthew 13:18-23 Jesus explains "Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth {it} not, then cometh the wicked {one}, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth {it}; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.". The seeds are the Word of God which is sown all over the whole world. It even falls upon all those who will never become saved. The first three places upon which the seed, i.e. the Word of God, fell are pictures of three different types of unsaved people who hear His Word. Only the fourth place is a picture of a saved person. The seeds falling by the way side are a picture of the Word of God being heard by people whom God has never saved for at least two reasons. First, Jesus tells us that this sort of person does not understand the Word of God. The Bible tells us that this is a characteristic of a person who has not been saved yet. 1 Corinthians 2:14 says "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know {them}, because they are spiritually discerned.". Second, Jesus tells us that Satan is able to steal away what little understanding this sort of person may have. The Scriptures, on the other hand, tell us that Satan cannot touch a saved person. 1 John 5:18 says "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.". The seeds that fell on the stony ground are a picture of the Word of God being heard by people who have not been saved yet because Jesus tells us that there was nowhere for the seeds to take root. If God saved a person then He would certainly provide a place for His Word to take root. Taken at a more spiritual level, in Revelation 22:16 Christ describes Himself as the root, indicating that a person's faith must be rooted in Christ. If the Word of God has nowhere to take root in a given person then the root, i.e. Christ, is not present within his heart. You may also wish to research all the Scriptural references to those having hearts of stone. Such references always refer to those whom God has not saved. One such example is God's description of the salvation process in Ezekiel 36:26 by declaring "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.". The seeds that fell among thorns are a picture of the Word of God being heard by people who have never been saved because Jesus tells us that this sort of person is more concerned with the cares of this world than he is with those of God. The Scriptures declare this to be, with out a doubt, a characteristic of an unsaved person. 1 John 2:15 says "Love not the world, neither the things {that are} in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.". Only those seeds which fell upon good ground are a picutre of the Word of God being heard by a person whom God has saved. These people have a heart which God has prepared and in which Christ dwells so that His Word can take root. Note that although they may all bring forth different amounts of fruit, they always bring forth some fruit. There is no such thing as a saved person who does not bring forth any fruit at all. Note also that none of these seeds withered. The concept of losing salvation can in no way be proven by this parable. If anything, it confirms that salvation cannot be lost. >To say 'once saved always saved' is like saying 'once married always >married'. I can be secure in my marriage but I can also walk away from >it. You cannot walk away from your marriage if you want to do it God's way. In Matthew 19:6 Jesus says "Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.". In the same way, you cannot walk away from salvation if you have been saved God's way. If you haven't been saved God's way then you haven't been saved. Your comparing salvation with marriage is correct, but you drew an inference based on earthly, rather than Scriptural, principles. God declares that an earthly marriage lasts until the death of one of the spouses. Salvation, therefore, lasts until the death of one of the spiritual spouses. Christ, our husband, will never die as He is from everlasting to everlasting. In Revelation 22:13 Jesus declares "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.". We, His wife, will also never die as we have been given eternal life as of the time that we became saved. 1 John 5:11 says "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.". We are married to Him forever and, therefore, can never lose our salvation. Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3