Xref: utzoo comp.os.vms:20057 comp.protocols.tcp-ip:9361 comp.unix.questions:17990 Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!dogie.macc.wisc.edu!uwvax!umn-d-ub!umn-cs!msi-s9.msi.umn.edu!mf12605 From: mf12605@msi-s9.msi.umn.edu Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.protocols.tcp-ip,comp.unix.questions Subject: UNIX vs. VMS Internet connectivity Message-ID: <17358@umn-cs.CS.UMN.EDU> Date: 27 Nov 89 21:27:29 GMT Sender: news@umn-cs.CS.UMN.EDU Reply-To: NBEHR@ECNCDC.BITNET (Eric Behr) Organization: Minnesota Supercomputer Institute Lines: 1128 *** NOTE: this is being posted from my brother's account; please *** *** respond by mail to NBEHR@ECNCDC.BITNET (Eric Behr) *** Here is my original question re. hooking up to Internet, followed by a summary of responses. My deepest thanks to everyone who replied. > Definition: "useful (Internet) software" means anything which > would permit file transfers a la ftp, access to news, rlogins, > equivalent of "talk", as well as other "connectivity" stuff > found in an average Unix system. > > - can an IBM mainframe run "useful software" without much pain? or > do we need to get connected to a Vax or something similar? > > - is VMS handicapped, as far as "useful software" goes, compared > to Unix? If so, in what way? > > - is there any favorite networking method to be used locally? > everywhere I've been before, Ethernet was the standard; here, a > "mafia" of sorts is pushing a token ring LAN; any concrete arguments > against it? ================================================================================ +1 Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1989 11:06 From: Chris Petersen - VUCC Subject: RE: Internet connectivity... To: nbehr@ECNCDC.BITNET X-VMS-To: IN%"nbehr@ecncdc.bitnet" I can only comment on my experience here at Vanderbilt University, but this is what I think... > Definition: "useful (Internet) software" means anything which > would permit file transfers a la ftp, access to news, rlogins, > equivalent of "talk", as well as other "connectivity" stuff > found in an average Unix system. At Vanderbilt, we are using the TCP/IP package from CMU/Tektronics to connect to the Internet. We're using PMDF (Pascal Mail Distribution Facility) from Innosoft to connect VMS Mail to the Internet software. This has not (to my knowledge) caused any problems to date, and it seems to work quite well. There are network mailing lists for both of the non-DEC products I mentioned above. As far as I can tell, CMU/Tek does not come with a 'talk' substitute. I had to write one for a networks class (on a Sun), and it wasn't that bad, so I may write one for VMS sometime soon. CMU/Tek does come with the standard FTP, Telnet (analogous to rlogin), SMTP (simple mail transfer protocol), and I think finger. You can get ANU-News (by Geoff Huston) for free across the network if you want to store news locally (Geoff is at Australian National U.) or a package from (I think) RPI which will allow you to NNTP to a convenient server. In short, there is quite a bit of software out there if you look for it (and some of it is even free!). > - can an IBM mainframe run "useful software" without much pain? or > do we need to get connected to a Vax or something similar? I really don't know the answer to that... > - is VMS handicapped, as far as "useful software" goes, compared > to Unix? If so, in what way? Yes and no. UNIX (some UNIXes, I guess) come with definitions for sockets and such like which are not built into the VAX definitions... This makes programming Internet stuff on UNIX a little easier, but for the knowledgable, VMS should be almost as good. > - is there any favorite networking method to be used locally? > everywhere I've been before, Ethernet was the standard; here, a > "mafia" of sorts is pushing a token ring LAN; any concrete arguments > against it? Personally, I would go with a TCP/IP-based Ethernet. This would allow you to put everything on the Internet almost directly (gateway from WAN to LAN would be in the VAX, I suppose) and with only a single protocol. That is if you are starting now. If you already have LANs in place, you might want to think about bridging them and then considering how to get them access to the big network... -Chris Petersen Vanderbilt University Computer Center Petersen@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.EDU Petersen@vuctrvx1.Bitnet Disclaimer: These are not necessarily the views of my employer, nor do I guarantee them to be in any way factual. They are opinions and should, therefore, be taken with a large grain of salt. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mark@asngat.asn.net Fri Nov 10 11:03:16 1989 Received: from umn-cs.cs.umn.edu by s1.msi.umn.edu; Fri, 10 Nov 89 11:03:11 CST Received: from asngat.asn.net by umn-cs.cs.umn.edu (5.59/1.14) id AA16803; Fri, 10 Nov 89 11:02:49 CST Message-Id: <8911101702.AA16803@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu> Date: 10 Nov 89 10:59:00 CST From: "Mark Preston" Subject: RE: UNIX vs. VMS Internet connectivity To: "msi-s9.msi.umn.edu!mf12605" For the VAX running VMS you will need to get TCP/IP from a third party. DEC can get you information on these companies since they have a marketing agreements with them. One is Wollongong and the other is FUSION. Both have advantages/disadvantages , you will have to look at them and pick which best suits your needs. We run Wollongong's. It includes telnet, ftp, smtp, tftp, named, finger, rlogin, and other protocols that we have disabled. The VAX does not support token ring, unless you find something from a third party vendor. The problem with Token ring is that the machine still has to forward the packet even if it is the machines must forward all packets that are not targeted to itself. That takes cpu cycles away. In a LAN it grabes the packed that is address to it only. All other packet are ignored. That is just the basics, the are other advantages/disadvantes like you ring may die completely if one node in the ring drops out. Mark. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1989 16:42 From: Subject: internet Date: Fri, 10 Nov 89 14:04:26 PST From: davy@itstd.sri.com Call IBM. Assuming your running VM/CMS (and maybe by now even MVS), they have a TCP/IP product. It actually works pretty well; we used it when I was at Purdue. Telnet and FTP are there, and mail works. --Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1989 18:18 From: "Mark H. Wood" Subject: Re: UNIX vs. VMS Internet connectivity Received: From for via RSCS by ECNCDC; Fri, 10 Nov 1989 18:18 CST Date: Fri, 10 Nov 89 15:18 EST From: "Mark H. Wood" Subject: Re: UNIX vs. VMS Internet connectivity To: NBEHR@ECNCDC.BITNET X-VMS-To: IN%"NBEHR@ECNCDC" >- can an IBM mainframe run "useful software" without much pain? or >do we need to get connected to a Vax or something similar? I don't handle the IBM gear here, but our 4381s run Telnet, SMTP, and FTP fairly well and give domain name service. The nameserver seems to require a database (we use SQL/DS). There was some trouble getting it set up but we are all still new to the IP world here. I don't know whether there is a newsreader for it and I don't know for sure what "talk" is. I'd think that you would want all of your machines on the network, but of course I don't know your situation. Most VMS IP packages offer Telnet, FTP, TFTP, rlogin etc, FINGER, PING, and SMTP. More and more also have an NFS option. There are public-domain packages such as ANU News to fill the gaps. If you expect much traffic at all, you might want to get a separate box just for routing. We connect to Internet via a cisco AGS on our Ethernet. >- is VMS handicapped, as far as "useful software" goes, compared >to Unix? If so, in what way? Not really; see above. One thing you didn't mention is lpr, which is kind of rare among VMS IPs but catching on fast. >- is there any favorite networking method to be used locally? We have thick, thin, twisted-pair, and broadband Ethernet at various places around the campus. We are now trying to nail a token ring onto the network but Ethernet is the backbone. I personally object to T-R for several reasons: o the Ethernet cable plant is very simple and rugged; the T-R cable plant includes MAUs, which are complex active devices usually located in stuffy closets and requiring power supplies of their own (I think). Ethernet just seems much less fragile, to me. o T-R seems to require central administration and control; Ethernet allows this but doesn't enforce it. o There is still no way to fit it to my BI-bus VAX. o Ethernet campaigns on its record, but T-R seems to advance itself mainly through mudslinging, IMHO. o I'm biased against anything pushed by IBM. :-P Good luck! You're embarked on an interesting project. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Mark H. Wood IMHW400@INDYVAX.BITNET (317)274-0749 III U U PPPP U U III Indiana University - Purdue University at Indianapolis I U U P P U U I 799 West Michigan Street, ET 1023 I U U PPPP U U I Indianapolis, IN 46202 USA I U U P U U I [@disclaimer@] III UUU P UUU III -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1989 10:08 From: "Karsten Nyblad, TFL" Subject: RE: UNIX vs. VMS Internet connectivity Received: From for via RSCS by ECNCDC; Sat, 11 Nov 1989 10:08 CST X-Delivery-Notice: SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender. Received: from NEUVM1 (SMTP) by vm.uni-c.dk (Mailer R2.03B) with BSMTP id 3035; Sat, 11 Nov 89 17:02:05 DNT Received: from danpost.uni-c.dk by vm.uni-c.dk (IBM VM SMTP R1.2) with TCP; Sat, 11 Nov 89 17:02:03 DNT Received: from vms9.uni-c.dk by danpost.uni-c.dk (5.61/4.7) id AA12734; Sat, 11 Nov 89 16:02:26 GMT Message-Id: <8911111602.AA12734@danpost.uni-c.dk> Received: from tfl.dk by vms9.uni-c.dk; Sat, 11 Nov 89 17:01 GMT+1 Date: Sat, 11 Nov 89 17:00 +0100 From: "Karsten Nyblad, TFL" Subject: RE: UNIX vs. VMS Internet connectivity To: NBEHR@ECNCDC.BITNET X-Vms-To: in%"NBEHR@ECNCDC.BITNET" Dear Eric, Here are some answers on on your posting to the info-vax mailing list. I have attached a list of common domain software for VMS to the mail. There are several vendors selling TCP/IP for VMS. I think the most videly used news program is ANU-NEWS (see the attached list of programs). Digital sells VMS ULTRIX connection. This lacks most commands like the rcommands (rlogin,rsh,...) The version 1.2 does not even include SMTP, i.e., the internet mail protocol. It can only communicated through ethernet. Digital has plans for implementing a full set of commands, but they can't deliver now. CMU-TEK TCP/IP (see attached address). It contains the basic TCP/IP commands (telnet,ftp,smtp,...) It contains support for remote printing, i.e., other computers printing on the VAX/VMS's printers, and the VAX/VMS printing on other computers printers. Advange: it is cheap. Wollongong. They have got a full TCP/IP, including support for ethernet and synchronious lines. There user interface is UNIX like. Address: The Wollongong Group, Inc. 1129 San Antonio Road Palo Alto, Ca 94303 (415) 962-7100 Novell/excelan. I do not know much about them, but they might have what you want. Novell/excelan is a merge of Novell, which is one of the largest PC LAN vendors, and Excelan, which have god implementations of TCP/IP. Multinet. I know notthing but the name. You should give the last three a try. There as you see several vendors providing TCP/IP, so you can't say VMS is handicapped with respect to TCP/IP, if that is what you call usefull software. TCP/IP is the network protocols implementing networking on UNIX. However, DECNET is to VAX/VMS what TCP/IP is to UNIX. There is not as much god common domain software available for VMS as for UNIX. The advantage of using ethernet is that a lot of protocols can coexist on the same network. That means that you can use the protocol you fill is best suited for a given task. That is an advantage if you connect machines from different vendors. On our ethernet we use TCP/IP for communication between VMS, MS-DOS and UNIX, DECnet between VMS and UNIX, and a MicroSOFT protocol sold under the name PCSA by Digital for MS-DOS <-> VMS communication. I guess IBM will claim that token ring is the best with respect to performance, and the (many) vendors of ethernet, that ethernet is the best. By the way, can you connect a VAX/VMS to a token ring network? Novell has god networking software for PCs. There software works best on ethernet, and I think they have a larger market share than IBM... When buying networking software for PCs you should look for software, that can be removed from the main storage of the PC, since many programs common in university world needs all 640k of storage. Karsten Nyblad TFL, A Danish Telecommmunication Research Laboratory E-mail: karsten@tfl.dk >I keep reading about the CMU-TEK TCP/IP package. The impression I get is that >it is either free- or cheapware. We would like to evaluate it, but don't know >how to get the package. Could some kind soul provide details, either to me or >to the 'net? It's cheapware and worth more than it costs. Contact: Lynne.Stonis@VM.CC.CMU.EDU or Carnegie Mellon University CMU-TEK Software 4910 Forbes Avenue Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3890 Attention Lynne Stonis Costs: Media, documentation and US mail !125.00 TK50s Add ! 25.00 Purchase orders Add ! 25.00 International orders Add ! 50.00 Note that support for the package is limited. There is a mailing list for the package. Send postings to CMU-TEK-TCP@CS.CMU.EDU and administrivia to CMU-TEK-TCP-REQUEST@CS.CMU.EDU. ******************************************************************************* The VAX Programs List (last updated: 20 July, 1989) The following programs are available as described below. If you have additions or corrections to make, please contact me at RIC@RML2.SRI.COM. Please submit ALL applications-specific questions to the originators of the codes. Availability codes are at the end of the list. NOTE: A current version of this file may be retreived by sending a ONE LINE mail message to: NETSERVER@RML2.SRI.COM. The one line should say: ?PACKAGE*VAX_LIST NOTE 2: Many people cannot access files via FTP. It would be nice if more sites obtained VMSSERV and/or NETSERVER and helped distribute some of these utilities. ANU NEWS A news program for VMS. For the usenet system of news msgs. Get 000_readme.ascii first. (1) See also NNTP_NEWS and UUCP. Availability: F1, D1 BECOME Allows you to "become" another user, if you're privileged. Availability: S10 BOSS Allows user to run several interactive processes at once. Availability: E1 BULLETIN Bulletin board SW for VMS systems. Availability: S1 DOE-MACSYMA Symbolic math package with numeric and plotting capabilities. Availability: M1 (cost for media and distribution, etc.). DVIDIS Utility to allow previewing of DVI files on VAX workstations using VWS (not DECwindows). Get DVIDIS.A and fixrec.exe and/or fixrec.c. Use fixrec to modify backup record size. Use binary mode FTP on DVIDIS.A and fixrec.exe. Availability: F18 DVI drivers Converts DVI files to formats that various printers can use. Availability: F2 DVI2PS Converts DVI (usually TEX or graphic) output to Postscript. Availability: F3 (1) ETAPE EBCDIC-ASCII tape reader-writer. Availability: S8 FILE Changes attributes of a file. Availability: S5 FIND Searches through index file of a disk to locate a file matching specific conditions. Availability: S5 FINGER Utility to provide info about users on local or remote systems. Availability: S2, S3, F10, S10 GNU Emacs Popular screen-oriented editor. Runs on a variety of computers. Developed at MIT. Availability: F4, F5 (COMPRESSED VMS-BACKUP FILE), F6 MG, formerly MicroGnuEmacs, is a smaller version of GNU emacs, and is available from: F17 (in pub/mg2a.tar.Z). Versions for VMS, UNIX, Amiga, and MSDOS may be available. A VMS backup saveset is available at: F10 (VMSD only). You may also need reblock.exe to fix backup record size. GNU C C compiler for VMS and other computers. ANSI plus extensions. Compatible with other VAX languages, but no VMS debugger records produced. GNU debugger (GDB) can be used for this. Availability: F4 (1), F7 KERMIT Popular file transfer utility. Often used to transfer files between two different computers. Versions for VAX, IBM-PC, MAC, UNIX, TOPS-20 and many other machines. Availability: F8 LIBSEARCH Searches through HELP and other libraries for a specific topic. Lists commands relevant to that topic. Availability: E4 MAINT A utility to maintain/update/control directories and the files that reside in them. Availability: F9 (in pub/maint). MAKE A program maintainer. Can be used to recreate a program by only recompiling source programs that are out of date. Analogous to "make" on UNIX systems. Two versions exist, at least: 1 very similar to the Unix make; 1 specifically for VMS. Availability: MAKE/VMS v3.4 from F10 (Read make.doc first), F19 MAKEINDEX Indexer for LaTeX. Availability: F2 MESSAGE Utility that logs all messages to a file. Availability: S7 MORE A unix-like file display tool. Availability: E6 (Shan Xuning version), F19 (Corbet version) MPMGR Modparams.dat file manager for large clusters. Availability: F11 NANNY A set of useful tools and an environment sourrounding VMS (will do autologouts, for example). Availability: E7 (get permission to copy), F20 NNTP_NEWS nntp newsreader for VMS. See also ANU NEWS. Availability: F12 NSQUERY Name server query program for CMU/Tek TCP V6.3. Availability: F11 PHOTO Uses pseudo terminal driver to "capture" a terminal session. Everything typed between PHOTO and LOGOUT is captured in a file. Availability: F10, F23 PIPE Utility that provides UNIX-style piping and redirection for a VMS environment. Availability: E10 PMDF General purpose system for delivering computer-based mail. Send a request for info to E8 before attempting to access this product. Availability: M2, E8 (queries only) PROFILE Screen-oriented user account add/modify utility. Availability: F12 PTDRIVER Pseudo terminal driver. Availability: F10 REPLY Logs messages to a file; replies to user messages. Availability: S7 SERVERS (MAIL) Utilities that will check for incoming mail and respond to requests (for files or information). Availability: Form: (COMMAND_TO_USE) SITE_NAME (SEND VMSSERV.PACKAGE) VMSSERV@UBVMSA.CC.BUFFALO.EDU and UBVMSB,UBVMSC,UBVMSD (?PACKAGE*NETSERVER) NETSERVER@VAXMFG.TECH.NWU.EDU SPELL Spelling checker (source in Pascal, exe in Decus TEX). The dictionaries are large indexed files. Availability: F16 (Part of Decus TeX) STATUS Utility that provides considerable detailed information about a VMS system and it users and resources. Needs DECNET. Availability: S5 SUM (Show Users More). Like DCL Show Users, but with addition of LAT Server and port name for LTAnnn: terminals. Availability: E5 SWING A wonderful screen-oriented directory and file maintenance tool. Allows for directory creation, moving, deletion, and displays. A bargain at half the price. Availability: F12 TAR A UNIX-like tar utility for VMS. Availability: F14 TAR2VMS A UNIX-like tar utility for VMS. Can convert tar tapes and files to VMS files. VMS2TAR does the reverse. Availability: F10, F14, E9 TeX/LaTeX Text formatting package developed by Donald Knuth. Produces DVI files. Availability: F13, F16 (Decus TeX), F21 UAF Searches through SYSUAF.DAT for users that match certain criteria. Availability: S5 UNMACRO Disassembler for MACRO language. Availability: S9 UNSDL Utility to aid in creation of include files from system definitions given in SYS!SHARE:STARLETSD. Availability: S5 UUCP Unix file data transfer utility for VMS. Includes ANU News. Availability: F14, D1, M4 VACATION Program to periodically check for incoming mail messages and let sender know that you're on vacation (or otherwise unable to respond) by sending back a message that you specify. Warning: Be careful if you subscribe to mailing lists. Availability: F12 VI A TPU emulation of the UNIX VI editor. Availability: info: VIREQ@NEMO.MATH.OKSTATE.EDU VI: F22, S6 (SEND #vi_v5$vi_000.com) . . . (SEND #vi_v5$vi_016.com) S4 VMS_SHAR Tool to distribute ascii source files that allows recipient to confirm files were properly received (with no errors). Availability: E3, F10 VERB Inverse of VMS's SET COMMAND. Availability: S4, S5 WATCHER Configurable idle-job killer. Knows about LAT. Availability: F11 WILD Wildcard (i.e., with * and %) version of DCL SEARCH. Availability: E1 XMODEM File transfer program with checksums and error correction. Compatible with CP/M MODEM7. XMODEM is program VAX-96 of the DECUS library. Author: J. James Belonis II. Availability: ???? (no FTP or SERVER yet) E2 ZOO File compressor/decompressor/archiver. Archiver: F15 (1) Requires compress/decompress and/or tar2vms or a tar utility. Most sites supplying compressed files also supply decompressing tools. Not all compress/decompress utilities are equal| The version from MIT will not work without modifications. Charles Karney of Princeton University (see BOSS, above) was kind enough to send me a difference file between a working VMS version and the MIT distribution. Probably MIT should fix their compress to work as well on VMS as it does on every other OS and computer (MIT, are you listening?). SOURCES: F -> Anonymous FTP, E -> EMAIL to person, S -> SERVER M -> Postal Service, D -> DECUS tape Be sure to use BINARY mode on FTP of executables and backups. D1 Spring 89 VAX SIG tape E1 KARNEY%PPC.MFENET@NMFECC.LLNL.GOV Charles Karney KARNEY%PPC.MFENET@LBL.BITNET E2 BELONIS@PHAST.PHYS.WASHINGTON.EDU J. James Belonis E3 A.HARPER%OAK.CC.KCL.AC.UK@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU Andy Harper E4 KEVIN%NCDLAB.ULCC.AC.UK@NSFNET-RELAY.AC.UK Kevin Ashley E5 MNK@DRACO.HAC.COM Michael Kimura E6 INS_BXS@JHUVMS.BITNET Shan Xuning E7 ZAR@XHMEIA.CALTECH.EDU Zar the Great (really|) E8 QPMDF@YMIR.BITNET (PMDF queries) E9 PENSTONE@QUCDNEEL.EE.QUEENSU.CA Sid Penstone E10 KENW%NOAH.ARC.CDN@RELAY.UBC.CA Ken Wallewein F1 KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU F2 SCIENCE.UTAH.EDU F3 JUNE.CS.WASHINGTON.EDU F4 PREP.AI.MIT.EDU F5 MIRIAM.UTAH.EDU F6 CC.UTAH.EDU F7 UMIGW.MIAMI.EDU F8 CUNIXC.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU F9 GUMBY.CC.WMICH.EDU F10 VMSA.CF.UCI.EDU, VMSD.CF.UCI.EDU F11 VMS.ECS.RPI.EDU F12 KRYPTON.ARC.NASA.GOV F13 SCORE.STANFORD.EDU (allegedly shutting down 8/31/89) F14 ACFCLUSTER.NYU.EDU F15 WSMR-SIMTEL20.ARMY.MIL F16 POWER.EEE.NDSU.NODAK.EDU F17 EMX.UTEXAS.EDU F18 VENUS.YCC.YALE.EDU F19 STOUT.UCAR.EDU F20 HAMLET.CALTECH.EDU F21 SUN.SOE.CLARKSON.EDU F22 VMS.UCC.OKSTATE.EDU F23 USC.EDU M1 National Energy Software Center 9700 South Cass Ave. Argonne, IL 60439 Ordering info: 312-972-7250 (As of 6/26/89: Cost for VAX/VMS version of DOE-MACSYMA is !3110, !2500 for prime contractors) M2 The PMDF Project Innosoft International, Inc. 250 W. First St., Suite 240 Claremont, CA 91711 (714) 624-7907 M3 M4 c/o Simpact Associates 9210 Sky Park Court San Diego, CA 92123 (619) 565 1865 (x1116) jeh@crash.cts.com Jamie Hanrahan M5 DECUS Program Library 219 Boston Post Road Marlboro, MA 01752-1850 (508) 480-3418 VMSSERV sites use the following syntax: DIR for program listing, SEND PGM to get a specific program. S1 (SEND ALL) BULLETIN%MIT.MFENET@CCC.MFECC.LLNL.GOV S2 (SEND FINGERV5) VMSSERV@UOFTO2.UTOLEDO.EDU S3 (SEND FINGER.PACKAGE) VMSSERV.SPCVXA.BITNET S4 VMSSERV@UBVMSD.CC.BUFFALO.EDU S5 VMSSERV@FHCRCVAX.BITNET, VMSSERV%FHCRCVAX.BITNET@OLY.ACS.WASHINGTON.EDU S6 MAILSERV@NEMO.MATH.OKSTATE.EDU S7 (SEND VMSDUMP REPLY.*) KERMSERV@UOFTO2.BITNET (SEND VMSDUMP MESSAGE.*) S8 (SEND #ETAPE$ETAPE.SHARE_1_OF_5) MAILSERV@UALR.BITNET ( . ) ( 5 ) S9 (?PACKAGE*UNMACRO) NETSERVER@VAXMFG.TECH.NWU.EDU S10 (SEND FINGER.1_OF_7) MAILSERV%FALCON@AAMRL.AF.MIL . ( 7_OF_7) (SEND BECOME.1_OF_1) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1989 17:07 From: CARL FUSSELL Subject: RE: Internet Received: From for via RSCS by ECNCDC; Sat, 11 Nov 1989 17:07 CST Date: Sat, 11 Nov 89 15:06 PST From: CARL FUSSELL Subject: RE: Internet To: NBEHR@ECNCDC.BITNET [...] We are currently comparing several different methods for both T-1 and 56KB links. We feel that the optimal is with a Proteon box attached to our ethernet (though Cisco sells a less expensive internet box I have been told -- will be calling them this week). Some internal constraints may cause us to use an interim solution for a year where we will use an existing VAX 750 Ultrix system as the router (or our 8650 VMS system a la Wollongong software)... haven't decided yet. Anyway, any comments you collect would be much appreciated. Thanx. Carl -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1989 18:44 From: "Leo Geoffrion, Skidmore College" Subject: TCP/IP and VMS Received: From for via RSCS by ECNCDC; Sat, 11 Nov 1989 18:44 CST Date: Sat, 11 Nov 89 19:43 EST From: "Leo Geoffrion, Skidmore College" Subject: TCP/IP and VMS To: nbehr@ECNCDC.BITNET X-VMS-To: IN%"nbehr@ecncdc.bitnet" In response to your posting about Internet for the VAX/VMS world... We use the CMU TCP/IP software, distributed by Carnegie Mellon. ($150). For its price, it's unbeatable. works well, although the documentation is pretty weak. the only component that we omit is their mailer. We prefer to use PMDF (Pascal Mail Delivery Facility) which interfaces to VMS MAIL much more cleanly that CMU's original product. I can probably dig up some addresses if you want them. Leo Geoffrion Skidmore College Computer Center. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- +2 Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1989 19:02 From: "James A. Harvey" Subject: UNIX vs. VMS interconnectivity Received: From for via RSCS by ECNCDC; Mon, 13 Nov 1989 19:01 CST Date: Mon, 13 Nov 89 16:30 EST From: "James A. Harvey" Subject: UNIX vs. VMS interconnectivity To: NBEHR@ECNCDC Original_To: JNET%"NBEHR@ECNCDC" Eric: I'll try to answer your questions. We've been on the Internet (via Indiana University) since May. >- can an IBM mainframe run "useful software" without much pain? or >do we need to get connected to a Vax or something similar? Yes. IBM sells a TCP/IP product for VM/SP (5798-FAL) and MVS (5685-061). For more information ask your IBM sales rep. Other companies also have implementations for IBM mainframes. There is a document that can be obtained from NIC.DDN.MIL that lists vendors of TCP/IP related software and hardware for different systems. Have someone that you know who has Internet access connect to NIC.DDN.MIL using FTP (10.0.0.51 or 26.0.0.73), login as user ANONYMOUS, with password as their "real" address (user@domain). Connect to the directory NETINFO: and get the document named VENDORS-GUIDE.DOC. It's kind of large (670 Kbytes). If you can't get anyone to get it for you, I can split it into three parts and send it to you by BITNET. This is just vendors that sent stuff to the NIC though, there's a lot of other stuff on the market too. >- is VMS handicapped, as far as "useful software" goes, compared >to Unix? If so, in what way? Not really. It depends what you mean by "useful software." Generally, each implementation gives you a client AND server for FTP (remote file transfer), TELNET (remote interactive login), and SMTP (mail, and some kind of interface to the local mail system). Most NFS (transparent access to files on a remote) implementations for IBM/VM and VAX/VMS are server-only (i.e., U*IX boxes can use the IBM and VAX systems as file servers, but not the other way around). The IBM implementation has an REXEC server. Most VMS implementations I am aware of (Wollongong, Fusion, and Multinet) were ported from the BSD 4.3 distribution and include rlogin, rsh, and rexec clients, but not servers. A lot of sysadmins (me included) consider these to be security holes anyway (people having files full of passwords around), and don't encourage their use (just use telnet). News is nice, but the only implementations for VMS of which I'm aware are public domain (there are NEWS packages for VMS available from DECUS, the DEC User's Society). Here on the VMS system I use we run the Wollongong software. We're not using their NFS yet, so I can't say much about that. If you are going to handle a lot of TELNET logins on VMS, make sure the TELNET server is a kernel implementation (the Wollongong and Multinet implementations are, and I think Fusion is soon to be or already is). Most of the public domain TCP/IPs for VMS aren't (e.g., the CMU stuff). Even so, a large number of TELNET logins on a VAX can present a considerable amount of overhead. For example, on the 8820s at I.U Bloomington, 100 or so TELNET sessions can use up about 1/5 of the CPU just in TELNET overhead. This is because of the character-at-a-time nature of terminal support on the VAX; you can get 1 packet for each character input. On an IBM it isn't so bad, since if the client TELNET on the remote host can emulate a 3270 terminal (a block mode device), the IBM host only has to send a few packets for each new screen. >- is there any favorite networking method to be used locally? >everywhere I've been before, Ethernet was the standard; here, a >"mafia" of sorts is pushing a token ring LAN; any concrete arguments >against it? Good luck finding a token-ring interface for a VAX. What is usually done is one has individual subnetted LANs that are one or the other, connected with IP gateways (ISO level-3 routers). Usually these are separate boxes, because in general one doesn't want to use timesharing hosts to do routing. Some routers can also act as level-2/MAC (media access control) bridges for other Ethernet protocols (for example, LAT). A router is generally slower than a bridge, although the newer ones are approching the packet transfer rates achievable by bridges. For example, I think DEC bridges are rated near 15000 packets/second (the theoretical maximum rate for a 10Mbps Ethernet), and the Cisco gateway servers we use here are rated at 12000 packets/second for routing or bridging. Of course, routers are more expensive. Another performance measurement that isn't always mentioned but that one has to consider in some situations is packet latency time, not just the raw throughput rate, but how long it takes to route a particular packet from one interface to another. As far as which to use for a particular LAN, there are advantages and disadvantages to both. Token-ring is deterministic, whereas Ethernet is not. This simply means that a token-ring node is guaranteed to be able to get access to the media to send a packet in a deterministic amount of time, whereas there is no such guarantee on an Ethernet. Ethernet can make fuller use of the network bandwidth at low loads, but degrades because of collisions at high loads, where in a token ring each node would still be getting it's guaranteed "share" of the bandwidth (this is what is meant by "deterministic" media access). Ethernet is supported by more vendors, although that is becoming less of an issue these days. It is possible to tap undetected into an Ethernet and watch all the network traffic; token-ring is more secure in this respect. Finally, token-ring has the potential for higher raw network bandwidth. Some articles (and some people!) treat this more like a religious issue than anything else. In practice, you choose it depending on the media access control best supported by the particular systems you are connecting. Generally this means Ethernet for DEC products and UNIX boxes and token-ring for IBM, and either for micro LANs. Specialized high-speed networks (e.g., a campus-wide fiber backbone) typically use some type of token ring. There are a couple of good articles by Charles L. Hedrick of Rutgers University on the administration of and introduction to TCP/IP networks that I have machine readable copies of that I could send you over BITNET if you like. For more information on routers and bridges there are a couple of good articles in IEEE Network, January 1988, Vol. 2, No. 1, "Bridges and Routers", by William M. Seifert (pp 57-64), and "Integrating Bridges and Routers in a Large Internetwork" by Eric Benhamou (pp 65-71). I hope this helps. If you want any of the machine-readable stuff I have let me know, and where to send it (BITNET?) and what format you want it in (punch, netdata, vmsdump, etc.). Good luck. - Jim Harvey, Senior Analyst/Programmer, IUPUI Computing Svcs. (DEC Systems) Internet: ijah400@indyvax.iupui.edu UUCP: ...{uunet, ?}!iuvax!ivax!ijah400 BITNET: ijah400@indyvax AT&T: (317) 274-0747 Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. P.S.: And don't be embarrased about asking questions. I was scratching my head over all this about a year ago too, and all I have to support is the software end of it... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- +3 Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1989 19:14 From: Aaron Leonard at UofA Telecommunications Subject: Re: UNIX vs. VMS Internet connectivity Received: From for via RSCS by ECNCDC; Mon, 13 Nov 1989 19:14 CST Date: Mon, 13 Nov 89 15:32 MST From: Aaron Leonard at UofA Telecommunications Subject: Re: UNIX vs. VMS Internet connectivity To: nbehr@ECNCDC.BITNET Message-id: <244C3F3843DFA00131@telcom.arizona.edu> X-Envelope-to: nbehr@ECNCDC.BITNET X-VMS-To: in%"nbehr@ecncdc.bitnet" Marek - Some random opinions ... (particularly biased opinions are flagged by: "(***BIAS***)": We (Univ of Arizona) are a site that has some of about everything: Internet connects, Bitnet connects, DECnet connects. We have IBMs running MVS and VM, VAXen running VMS, and lots of stuff running Unix. >can an IBM mainframe run "useful software" without much pain? or >do we need to get connected to a Vax or something similar? Hm. Well, in general, (***BIAS***) IBMs CAN'T run "useful software" without much pain, because IBM mainframes are inherently painful. Actually, there are many ways to network IBMs to the rest of the world. Here are 2 techniques we employ: 1. RSCS. This is an old, batch-oriented network protocol for IBMs. (It's what Bitnet talks.) Its main advantage is that it's cheap (all you need is slow synchronous [or "bisync"] serial lines, and it comes built into IBMs.) Its main disadvantages are that it's slow, and that it doesn't support remote logins. (It is good for mail, for file transfers, and for remote job entry functions such as batch job and print submissions.) The RSCS implementation that we use for VMS is Jnet, from a company called Joiner Associates. It's a very well made and well supported product. You should be able to get RSCS for Unix from somebody, but I don't know who.) 2. TCP/IP. We have our VM mainframe hooked up to our Ethernet via a box called a "DACU". It's running TCP/IP from IBM. We have most all of our Unix systems and VAXen talking TCP/IP as well, so this gives us lots of functionality. This supports FTP, TELNET(*), and SMTP. It seems to be fast and pretty reliable, except that the "DACU" flakes out about every 6 months or so. We don't have a TCP/IP into our MVS 3090, as that costs an arm and a leg. (*) Note on TELNET to/from an IBM mainframe: IBM terminals are very weird compared to everybody else's. So that claim that TELNET "works" should be taken with a grain of salt. In general, your TELNET client side (non-IBM host) should be able to run TN3270. OK, on to the next question: >is VMS handicapped, as far as "useful software" goes, compared >to Unix? If so, in what way? The only way in which VMS is "handicapped" vs. Unix is this: if you're running VMS, you must pay extra to get your networking software (and choose the right software wisely!), while with Unix, (***BIAS***) you get broken software for no additional charge. In fact, we have standardized on VMS to run our campus network gateways, because of its superior reliability and connectivity. (***BIAS***) If you are running TCP/IP on VMS, there is ONLY ONE GOOD CHOICE! Repeat: THERE IS ONLY ONE GOOD CHOICE. This is MultiNet from TGV.COM (marketing information: Desiree Champagne ). MultiNet is the best implementation of TCP/IP commercially available - including any BSD implementation. If you buy any other TCP/IP for VMS, (***BIAS***) you WILL be sorry. >is there any favorite networking method to be used locally? >everywhere I've been before, Ethernet was the standard; here, a >"mafia" of sorts is pushing a token ring LAN; any concrete arguments >against it? Yup - our favorite networking method is TCP/IP over Ethernet. This is because: 1. Ethernet works. 2. Ethernet is pretty fast. 3. Ethernet is pretty cheap. 4. (Almost) everything talks Ethernet. 5. (Almost) everything talks TCP/IP. 6. TCP/IP has lots of functionality. 7. The whole (academic world) speaks TCP/IP. (***BIAS***) anyone who "is pushing a token ring LAN" is obviously a brain-dead IBM weenie. I won't offer any concrete arguments against an IBM token ring because such people typically won't listen to reason. Rotsa ruck, Aaron Aaron Leonard (AL104) | leonard@arizona.edu / U of Ariz Telecom | LEONARD@ARIZONA.BITNET Tucson AZ 85721 | 47540::TELCOM::LEONARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1989 8:23 From: Subject: VMS connects Received: From for via RSCS by ECNCDC; Mon, 20 Nov 1989 08:23 CST Received: from BUACCA by buacca.bu.edu (Mailer X1.25) with BSMTP id 1101; Mon, 20 Nov 89 07:39:43 EST Received: from bu-it.BU.EDU by BUACCA.BU.EDU (IBM VM SMTP R1.2.1) with TCP; Mon, 20 Nov 89 07:39:42 EST Received: from BUIT4.BU.EDU by bu-it.BU.EDU (5.58/4.7) id AA21602; Mon, 20 Nov 89 07:39:44 EST Return-Path: Received: by buit4.bu.edu (3.2/4.7) id AA25326; Mon, 20 Nov 89 07:39:42 EST Date: Mon, 20 Nov 89 07:39:42 EST From: gjc@bu-it.BU.EDU Message-Id: <8911201239.AA25326@buit4.bu.edu> To: NBEHR@ECNCDC.BITNET Subject: VMS connects The issue of VMS connectivity vs Unix was *always* one of *price*, not *performance*. However, the *price* difference has now gone away with two packages, both of which are being used extensively: * CMU TCP-IP. Costs $150 to get the tape. A full TCP-IP implementation. * DECUS UUCP. Also cheap from DECUS. The main limitation of the CMU package is the mailer. People I know tend to combine it with PMDF from Innosoft, especially when they have more than one transport protocol like DECUS UUCP on the same machine. Obviously you get full sources with both packages. I know of one site using CMU-TCP (pfcvax.pfc.mit.edu) where they seem to have to forward domain-style addresses which do not have internet addresses because of a lack of MX record support for mailing outgoing. There is a NAMSRV process however that does domain lookup for internet addresses, so it should not be a big deal to get the mailer to look up MX records too. There is an internet mailing list out of @CMU.EDU for system managers using the package. Bug reporting, hints, problem resolution, the usual thing. Then of course there are many commercial packages for TCP-IP and UUCP under VMS from various suppliers. Multinet available from SRI is the most attractive of the commercial packages in my opinion. -gjc -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [more correspondence with gjc] +4 Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1989 23:27 From: Subject: vms connections X-Vms-Mail-To: UUCP%"nbehr@ecncdc.bitnet" you are welcome. This message being sent with DECUS UUCP by the way. Now, you have a IBM machine, have you looked at the DECNET/SNA connectivity stuff from DIGITAL? Not cheap at something like $50k, but of course IBM mainframes are not cheap either. The reason I ask is that Boston University has a big IBM mainframe also, and lack of connectivity has always been a big problem for that machine. They never did get TCP running correctly. Of course they have their own one-of-a-kind-in-the-world home-brew OS called VPS running on it under VM. So that doesnt help. -gjc -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1989 18:27 From: (William Clare Stewart) Subject: Re: UNIX vs. VMS Internet connectivity Received: From for via RSCS by ECNCDC; Mon, 20 Nov 1989 18:27 CST Received: from CUNYVM by CUNYVM.BITNET (Mailer R2.03B) with BSMTP id 0776; Mon, 20 Nov 89 19:24:58 EDT Received: from arpa.att.com by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP R1.2.2MX) with TCP; Mon, 20 Nov 89 19:24:54 EDT Date: Mon, 20 Nov 89 15:39:11 EST From: wcs@ho95c.att.com (William Clare Stewart) To: mf12605@msi-s9.msi.umn.edu NBEHR@ECNCDC.BITNET Subject: Re: UNIX vs. VMS Internet connectivity Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.protocols.tcp-ip,comp.unix.questions In-Reply-To: <16881@umn-cs.CS.UMN.EDU> Organization: AT&T Bell Labs I've done a little bit of this, but not much. As you might guess, VMS is pretty foreign to us here, something that would only be used by number-crunching types who LIKE fortran :-). But on one of our projects, we were dealing with a company that did fancy satellite image number crunching on VMS, and we were working with HP Series 9000 Unix machines to do graphics animation. The right way to do the job is to get real TCP/IP for teh VAX (some university-ware packages are out there, as well as commercial from Wollongong etc.), but we didn't have the VMS expertise to do that. HP has a software package called "Network Services" = NS/VAX, NS/9000, etc, which give you file transfer and I think remote login capabilities. We set up some scripts on each machine to put the files in some well-defined locations and haul tehm across using HP's substitute for RCP (which also took care of record-length, byte-swapping, etc.) Boring stuff, but pretty simple to do. ]- can an IBM mainframe run "useful software" without much pain? or ]do we need to get connected to a Vax or something similar? ]- is VMS handicapped, as far as "useful software" goes, compared ]to Unix? If so, in what way? Both systems can support TCP/IP and Ethernets. You tend to need third-party equipment, especially for IBM mainframes, but it exists; VAXes can eitehr use DEC or 3rd-party (the latter is cheaper.) The basic problem is that both vendors have their own favorite lock-you-in networking software, and support isn't always the best for standards. DEC is a bit better, since DECnet Phase 5 is supposedly OSI-based, but there isn't a lot of OSI stuff for it to talk to. ]- is there any favorite networking method to be used locally? ]everywhere I've been before, Ethernet was the standard; here, a ]"mafia" of sorts is pushing a token ring LAN; any concrete arguments ]against it? Token rings are EVIL! (If you've read "The Hobbit", by J.R.R. Token, you know that the Ring makes you invisible but warps your spirit and lets the Evil Empire now where you are :-) If you use them, you're LOCKED IN! It may not support your VAX, and you'll be forced to use crufty protocols which you won't be able to keep up-to-date without constantly buying the latest stuff from IBM. Ethernets come in several electrical flavors (thin-wire, thick-wire, and twisted-pair), and it's easy to get electrical conversion betwwen them, and to get Ethernet boards for any kind of equipment you have - IBM, DEC, Sun, PCs, Macs, AT&T 3B2s, RISC boxes, and everyone supports TCP/IP in some fashion, though they don't all like to admit it. You can also get terminal server boxes to provide access to the machines, which is generally cheaper than IBM front-end-processors and lets you use dumb ASCII terminals instead of 3270. --- # Bill Stewart, AT&T Bell Labs 4M312 Holmdel NJ 201-949-0705 api.att.com!wcs #We did it for the formlessness ... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- +4 Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1989 14:51 From: RANDY MARCHANY Subject: unix - vms internet connectivity Received: From for via RSCS by ECNCDC; Wed, 22 Nov 1989 14:51 CST Date: Tue, 21 Nov 89 14:17 EST From: RANDY MARCHANY Subject: unix - vms internet connectivity To: nbehr@ecncdc Original_To: BITNET%"nbehr@ecncdc" Original_cc: MARCHANYRC Hi, here at VA Tech, we have IBM 3090 and 3084 running VM, a VAX 8800 running VMS and countless workstations running VMS or Ultrix. All of these systems are connected on an ethernet. The VMS systems run Wollongong's WIN/TCP TCP/IP software package, the IBM VM systems run a TCP/IP package developed by IBM and the Ultrix systems use the standard TCP/IP package that comes with the system. We have been using this setup for over 2 years with very little problems. Our Computing Center (where the IBM's and the 8800 are located) site is 2 miles from campus. I believe we use a Token ring bridge to connect the Center's Ethernet to the the campus ethernet backbone. All of the TCP/IP packages mentioned provide TELNET, FTP, SMTP support (in fact, I'm on an Ultrix workstation telnetted to the VMS machine to send you this note). If you need more specific info, drop me a note. My address is: Randy Marchany VA Tech Computing Center 1700 Pratt Dr. Blacksburg, VA 24061-0214 703-231-9523 Bitnet: MARCHANYRC@VTCC1 Hope this helps you out. -Randy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Again, thanks to all respondents. Please follow up by mail to NBEHR@ECNCDC; I can't access newsgroups easily. Eric Behr | Marek Behr | mf12605@uc.msc.umn.edu (internet) | | University of Minnesota | AE01005@UMNACVX (BITNET) | Brought to you by Super Global Mega Corp .com