Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!ucsd!ucsdhub!hp-sdd!hplabs!hp-ses!hp-ptp!davew
From: davew@hp-ptp.HP.COM (Dave_Waller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp
Subject: Re: HP Customer Support...
Message-ID: <1320020@hp-ptp.HP.COM>
Date: 29 Nov 89 17:38:14 GMT
References: <203@limbo.Intuitive.Com>
Organization: HP Pacific Technology Park - Sunnyvale, Ca.
Lines: 82

mart@ele.tue.nl (Mart van Stiphout) writes:
> In article <203@limbo.Intuitive.Com> taylor@limbo.Intuitive.Com (Dave Taylor) writes:
> >private as possible, so instead of doing something like, say, posting the
> >workaround patch to the "-O" compiler optimization bug that everyone has
> >been clamouring about for weeks here on the net, they simply have their SE's
> >deliver the patch to those customers that ASK THE SE specifically about it
> 
> I guess you'right but we've the same situation with Apollo. Apparently
> they produce patch tapes once a month or so but you never get to see
> them unless:
> 1. you have a problem
> 2. know there is a patch
> 3. ask them for it.
> 
> I very much agree with you on a news or mailing service for this kind of
> trouble. Would be much faster and cheaper than sending patch tapes.
> -- 
> 
> Mart van Stiphout
> mart@ele.tue.nl
> (It's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop)
> ----------

The primary reason why HP and other companies don't post patches to a
public forum like USENET is because of liability.

This is not a cheap excuse. It is a fact of the business world. In
contrast to say, most of Apple's customers, HP customers tend to be
large institutions or companies with a legal department and alot of
money. If HP distributes a patch BEFORE it has been rigorously tested,
and the end user uses the patch in a critical production situation, and
the patch fails to fix the problem, there are many people out there
with the financial clout to sue the company that WILL. Even if they
don't win, it ends up costing HP alot of money, time, and headache. If
they do win, it could mean the end of HP.

Furthermore, our exposure is dramtically increased through a
distribution channel such as USENET because we have no control over who
gets the patches, and therefore the liability issue is that much more
dangerous. When we can deal with individual customers, proper
expectations can be set before the delivery of an interim fix.

I must take issue with Dave Taylor's comments that bugs don't get fixed.
I have worked for HP for 5 years, in support, and my experience has been
that the exception is the bug that gets completely ignored. I too have
found numerous bugs, and submitted internal DTS reports about them. All
of mine have been addressed, and most have been fixed.

Sometimes it just TAKES a long time to resolve a particularly nasty bug.
However, the statistics are that most problems are resolved within a few
days. Granted, many of these are user misunderstanding problems, however
customers get a pretty good deal from HP when purchasing RC support to
answer these questions, when one considers what it would cost to pay a
consultant to do the same -- and that is essentially the service they
are getting with these type of questions.

The tougher bugs don't take many weeks because people are lazy or
ignorant -- they take a long time because sometimes they are VERY
difficult to solve. One bug that I was working on with two other
engineers over the last several weeks was particularly hard to find
because its behaviour was timing related, so we were not able to
reproduce it on every series 800 machine in the same way. Often the most
dificult task is just reproducing the bug reliably, a task that many
customers are uncooperative in helping us with because they don't want
to share their software with us that produces the bug (in the
aforementioned example, this was not the case, thank goodness!).

Dave, I have sympathy with your frustrations. Would that HP had
unlimited resources, we could probably fix everything that everyone
wanted in the time frame they wanted. However, given the limited
resources that we (and for that matter, any other vendor) have, hard
decisions have to be made, thereby leaving SOMEONE's critical bug
unfixed. These people are not going to be happy no matter how hard one
tries to pursuade them of the reality of the situation.

However, your experience is, as far as I can determine, the extreme
exception inside and outside HP. It seems that you were incredibly
unlucky.

Dave Waller  \  The opinions expressed are solely my own, and in no way
Hewlett-Packard Co.  \  represent those of my employer (but we all know
dave@hpdstma.ptp.hp.com | hplabs!hpdstma!dave  \  they should!)