Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: jhpb@lancia.garage.att.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Once Saved Always Saved Message-ID: Date: 29 Nov 89 04:46:51 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: AT&T Bell Labs (Liberty Corner) Lines: 42 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu How does what happened to Jimmy Swaggart fit in with "once saved, always saved"? [Of course Swaggart's experience doesn't necessarily mean that he is damned, just that he has fallen for the moment. The idea of perseverence is not that the elect make no mistakes, are spared all doubts, etc. It is really a consequence of passages such as Jn 6:39-40 or Jn 10:29, which teach confidence that those who have been given to Christ will be preserved. --clh] I don't think I disagree with the moderator's comments. But maybe I didn't get my point across. I took "once saved, always saved" to be a reference to the idea that once one has accepted our Lord as one's "personal Saviour", it's a straight ticket to Heaven. Some people talk about the "assurance of salvation". My point was, how is such an idea to jive with a spectacular fall in someone who is supposedly saved? Am I to understand that no matter what wickedness such a person commits, they are going to go straight to Heaven when they die? It would appear to make salvation independent of one's actions. One person robs a bank, and ends in Hell for it, another robs a bank, and yet goes straight to Heaven. What exactly is a person damned for, if not as a punishment of their own actions? How can the same act in two different people lead to such disparate ends? Joe Buehler [As far as I know, no one claims that God chooses someone in a way that is independent of their choices. (This is my restatement of "no matter what wickedness such a person commits, they are going to go straight to Heaven when they die?") The point of predestination, which lies behind "assurance of salvation", is that God is ultimately responsible for who chooses which way. If someone is elect, then he will make choices that lead to his salvation. That's what being elect means. --clh]