Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: bnr-fos!bmers58!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Once Saved Always Saved Message-ID: Date: 29 Nov 89 04:50:51 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada Lines: 190 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article jamesa@amadeus.wr.tek.com (James Akiyama) writes: >... In other >words, God bestowed the gift of grace on the person, but the person refused the >gift. The problem with this line of reasoning is that it conflicts with your earlier and correct statement that a person is only saved through the actions of God Himself. If I can remain unsaved by the act of refusing then I necessarily become saved by the act of not refusing, i.e. accepting. At the very least I would be able to arrogantly stand before God in heaven and cponfidently proclaim that at least one of the reasons that I am there is because I did not refuse His offer. >Note that there seems to be some interplay of freewill here. The fact that >God has revealed Himself, but the person chooses whether to follow or not. >What I'm not sure about is how much God influences that choice. Romans 9:19 >seems to indicate that we can't resist His will: > > One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who > resists his will?" > >Of course there are numerous other passages which seem to indicate that we >do have some choice. Since the Bible is the Word of God, who does not lie, we must conclude that we do not fully understand and cannot trust our own thoughts on any given topic until we have reconciled them with every applicable Scripture. We must never rest when we are faced with an apparent contradiction like this. Please permit me to offer the only scenario which I believe is completely supportable by any verse in the entire Bible. I urge you not to jump to the conclusion that it cannot be true just because it seems to be a bit unpleasant on the surface. First, test it by applying it to each verse as you read. If you read the entire Bible and cannot find a single verse that contradicts it then you will conclude, as I have, that it is the truth. If you can find even one verse which contradicts it then please let me know so that I can gain a greater understanding of the truth. I am unwilling to believe something which can be disproven by Scripture. Those Scriptures which declare that God does everything according to His own will and that our wills have no effect on the outcome are quite emphatic and cannot be looked at from any other vantage point. This dictates that they must be interpreted exactly as they appear. An example of such a Scripture is Ephesians 1:11 which says "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:". I do not believe that anyone who believes that we have free will has found a truly acceptable way to deal with this particular verse. They may not just ignore it, though, as it is the Word of God. Those Scriptures which appear to tell us to do one thing or another in order to insure our salvation do have another vantage point from which they may be read and from which I'm sure they were written. This other vantage point makes them become entirely consistent with the former set. They are giving us a means by which we can determine whether or not we have been saved. An example of such a Scripture is Matthew 10:22 in which Jesus says "And ye shall be hated of all {men} for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.". This passage appears, at first glance, to be telling us that we have to hang onto our salvation by enduring right up until the end, i.e. our death. Honest self-evaluation tells me that, if this were really the criteria, I would have lost my salvation several times over and would, therefore, have no hope whatsoever of eternal life. Since Romans 8:38-39 tells me that nothing that anyone, including myself in the weakness of my own flesh, will ever do can separate me from the love of God, I know this must be an incorrect interpretation. Also, since all the references to the receiving of eternal life are in the past tense when applied to a saved person, I know that this interpretation must be incorrect. Looking at this Scripture from the other vantage point which I mentioned, though, brings it into precise harmony with all the rest of the Bible. It is really telling me that if I do not continue to endure then I am not saved. I agree with you that the sort of person described in Hebrews 6:4-6 is one to whom God has revealed Himself and who has failed to demonstrate faith. Where I differ from you in its interpretation is that I do not believe that God has even attempted to draw this sort of person. For the benefit of those without easy access to a Bible, I shall quote this passage before going on. Hebrews 6:4-6 says "For {it is} impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put {him} to an open shame.". This passage, being included within a letter whose earthly intention was to explain to the Hebrew people who the Scriptures with which they were most familiar, i.e. the Old Testament, revealed Jesus, has as its earthly subject matter the people of ancient Israel. God, beyond the slightest shadow of any doubt whatsoever, did reveal His greatness to them. He defeated powerful armies for them. He kept them in good physical condition. He kept their clothes from wearing out. He insured that they always had enough to eat. His presence was always visible to them, i.e. the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night. They could always ask Moses to ask Him a question for them and knew that he would always return with the answer. Yet, with all this and more, Hebrews 3:19 tells us "So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.". God's answer to why they did not believe is Ephesians 2:8 which says "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: {it is} the gift of God:". This passage is telling me that saving faith is a gift from God Himself. Even though God did all sorts of wondrous things for them and even though His greatness was always apparent to them, they did not exercise true faith because He did not give that faith to them. Before we condemn the people of ancient Israel for their lack of faith in such a great and living God, however, we would do well to realize that this passage in Ephesians is clearly making a statement that must be applied to each and every one of us. I must conceed, based on this passage, that my trust in Christ's sacrifice is a gift from God. I must conclude that I would never have begun to trust in Christ's sacrifice if God had not chosen to draw me to Himself. John 6:44 begins "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:". I must conclude that I could not go on trusting in Christ's sacrifice if God would not continue to give me the faith to do so. Hebrews 12:2 begins "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of {our} faith;". I would also like to seek a little more compassion for the people of ancient Israel and a little more honest self-evaluation of ourselves by pointing out that it was not only they to whom God revealed His greatness. He declares that He has revealed His greatness to each and every person who has ever lived and that He will continue to reveal His greatness to everyone who is yet to live. Romans 1:18-20 says "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed {it} unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, {even} his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:". Even though He may have been a bit more blatent about it when dealing with the people of ancient Israel, He is telling us that as far as He is concerned the mere fact that we can look around at this marvelous creation is evidence enough of all that He is. Anyone who is aware of the creation in which he is living, and that includes everyone, has absolutely no excuse before God for not having exercised true faith in Him. The fact is, however, that our sinful state prevents us from doing so. The fact that some of us do exercise this sort of faith in Him even when we are confronted by most of the rest of the people of the world who cannot understand it is merely even more evidence that that faith had to come from God Himself. Let us give credit where credit is due, and stop looking for even the smallest hole through which we can let even the edge of the concept of free will creep in. A few paragraphs ago I quoted the first part of John 6:44. I would like to inspect this verse a little further. In its entirity it says "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.". This verse is telling us more than is immediately obvious about someone whom God draws. The most common fact that most people see in this verse is that it is impossible for someone to become saved unless God takes the first step. This, alone, is enough to prove that there is no such thing as an unsaved person exercising the free will to begin seeking God. Another fact that many people do not often spot, however, is that Jesus is promising that He will raise up these people on the last day. He is saying, in other words, that He will resurrect all those people whom the Father is drawing. This is telling me that a person's eternal life is secure as of the point in time when God begins to draw him, even if he has not actually been formally saved yet. This, alone, is sufficient evidence for the fact that we do not have the free will to refuse salvation once God begins to work on us. I, for one, am exceedingly glad with respect to these truths. I know that if there were even one thing which I could do to mess up my chances of spending an eternity as a member of the body which is the bride of my Creator then I would most certainly eventually do it. I have to contend with my own sinful fleshly desires from moment to moment, and dare not assume that I could ever achieve victory over them on my own. I need Him, and He has promised to always be with me. I claim no personal credit for any good thing in my life because He is responsible for it all. Ephesians 2:10 says "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.". Since there is nothing I can do to lose my salvation, and since God has promised to never revoke it, I confidently look forward to spending eternity filled with and encompassed by the infinitely great magnitude of the completely selfless love of my spiritual husband. As His spiritually betroathed bride, I joyfully serve Him even now, before our marriage is consumated. Would that you all could see this beauty! Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3