Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!jarthur!aqdata!sullivan
From: sullivan@aqdata.uucp (Michael T. Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.edu
Subject: Re: Are there still good teachers?
Message-ID: <1989Dec6.220957.26182@aqdata.uucp>
Date: 6 Dec 89 22:09:57 GMT
References: <8841@medusa.cs.purdue.edu>
Organization: aQdata, Inc.  Western Region -- San Dimas, CA
Lines: 48

From article <8841@medusa.cs.purdue.edu>, by spaf@cs.purdue.edu (Gene Spafford):
> 
> Let me explain a somewhat abstract point that has bearing on this
> discussion: university faculty are not supposed to be teachers.  The
> idea behind a university education is that students are supposed to
> teach themselves...the faculty are a resource, similar to the library,
> and the students are to take advantage of that.
> ...
> We've now reached a state where the majority of undergraduates are not
> prepared to learn on their own.  They come to college because it is
> expected of them in order to get a good job, or to please mom & dad.

One of the reasons that the nature of "higher education" is changing is
because the world/job market has become more complex.  In my case, I
couldn't have become a good computer programmer on a high school education
alone.  If I wanted to be a programmer, which I did, then I pretty much
_had_ to go to college.  No computers in high school at that time; college
was the only way to go.  So for me, college wasn't intended to be a place
where I would become worldly, it was a place I needed to go to get
"training" in my field.

> "learning".  College shouldn't be advanced high school.  Of course, we
> shouldn't be admitting students who cannot read or write above the 6th
> grade level...even if they do have a high school diploma from
> somewhere.  But if Purdue (for instance) dropped our enrollment from
> 36,000 to 18,000 there would be some major logistical and financial
> problems.  So, most colleges and universities continue to accept
> a certain percentage of the applicants in order to stay in
> business.
> ...
> The problem isn't necessarily where the good teachers have gone.  It
> is one of the changing nature of higher education, and the lack of
> skill and motivation of far too many students entering college.

So you admit that schools such as Purdue are having to change their
admission policies because of the realities of today.  It seems they
can respond where their bank accounts are concerned but not always
where their students needs are concerned.  There are some instances,
CS is one of them, where the only "job training" that can be had is
at a University.  Not high school, not Fred's College of Electrical
Engineering ("Learn to repair VCR's and computers in four months!"),
but at a college.  Many students are unmotivated but don't blame the
ones who are for wanting a job after school.  It's just one of today's
realities.
-- 
Michael Sullivan          uunet!jarthur.uucp!aqdata!sullivan
aQdata, Inc.
San Dimas, CA