Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!dinorah!mary
From: mary@dinorah.wustl.edu (Mary E. Leibach)
Newsgroups: rec.birds
Subject: Re: So am I, waiting
Summary: An attempt at reasonable conversation.
Message-ID: <1054@dinorah.wustl.edu>
Date: 8 Dec 89 18:59:58 GMT
References: <941@wrgate.WR.TEK.COM>
Organization: Washington University (St. Louis)
Lines: 88
In-reply-to: denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM's message of 6 Dec 89 23:05:34 GMT

denise@dadla.WR.TEK.COM (Denise Caire) writes:

>I can't help but notice you along with Ed B., Mikki B., Mike M.,
>K. Sullivan, and who knows who all never address the fact that
>someone in this group said to shoot cats enticed to birds at feeders.

I am afraid I never saw that particular article, only your references
to it.  I believe I said in a previous posting that I certainly do not
condone the shooting of cats.  

>From all the bad mouthing I've received in an open forum, I'ld say 
>this is an emotional issue.  Step back from your emotions and see
>the facts.  (I will be researching over my Christmas vacation).

You are right it is an emotional issue.  On the one hand, some person
suggested shooting cats, which other people love as part of their
family.  SOME cats do hunt and kill birds, which many people love.
That does not even count the after-the-fact mud slinging that has gone
on.  You are right, it is time for some apologies and some clearing of
heads.  On ALL sides.

>You, in the open forum, think you can shut me up and shoo me away
>because you don't want to open your eyes.  I will not be "crowed"
>into shutting up and if that "ruffles your feathers", then so be it.

Cute.  If it makes you feel better, I sincerely doubt you can be shut
up.  Censorship isn't desirable anyway.
  
>Hey, I already admitted that the joke was uncalled for, but it did
>startle you, didn't it?  That is exactly how I felt when shooting cats
>was suggested.  And I retaliated with a sick joke that wasn't in the
>least bit funny, and I knew that.

Understandable.  Your aim is very lousy though.  I was trying to see
things from your cat's point of view, not advocating shooting it.

>Well, as I have already suggested in a previous response, you could
>try supporting environmentally conscience groups (as I'm sure many of
>you do) instead of "sticking your heads in the sand" and saying that
>cats are bad.  (If you truely like cats, then "scratch" the last
>sentance).  

Like I said before, it was and is a good suggestion.  Having read many
stories about people being involved in rehab projects that take care
of injured birds, I think the net is with you on this one.

>I guess what really "sticks in my craw" is the fact that it is so easy
>to place a feeder where cats can't get to birds, why not do it?

The birds my mother feeds like to throw the seed on the ground and
then eat it.  Some birds are ground feeders.  Not to start a flame
war, or anything, but how do you deal with that?  And could someone
repost the suggestions on how to cat-proof the feeder?  I missed it.

>I agree now with another poster who stated that if some people
>didn't hate cats, they would just hate something else.

In the case of sicko people who get their kicks out of torturing cats
for fun, I heartily agree with you.  But there many bird lovers out
there that do not appreciate cats attacking birds.  True, cats are not
the only hazaards to birds.  But sometimes the big corporations with
their polution and ecological destruction seem so impossible to fight.
The neighbor's cat is within easy reach.  It is visible, it can be
driven off.  There are people who own these cats, not some big
corporation with an army of lawyers.  On top of all of that, the
article that triggered the whole thing dealt with cats.  In a month or
two, someone will want to be on the warpath against something else.

>Don't hold your beak.  I'ld also like the person who said to shoot
>cats to admit that they are wrong!

Fair enough.  I'd also like to see some such admission from them as
well.  This group has proven that there are more humane methods than
shooting, so gratutious violence is uncalled for.

>How can an attempt to educate people be a flame war?  All in ones
>perspective I suppose.

Not the education, that can stay here.  But name-calling and flames
should stop or move.  And I still think rec.pets is the best
net-resource to find out how to keep a cat in one's own yard.

>Denise "I like mohs all animals 'cept possums" Caire

Okay, what is so bad about possums.  'Cept of course that they are
ugly and feisty (IMHO)?  I don't advocate shooting them either.

	-Mary