Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!apple!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: crf%basil@princeton.edu (Charles Ferenbaugh) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Once Saved Always Saved Message-ID: Date: 6 Dec 89 05:54:28 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Princeton University Lines: 36 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article bnr-fos!bmers58!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) writes a Biblical defense of predestination which is far too long to repeat here. After reading that article, I still have difficulty reconciling two things with it: one apologetic, one scriptural. First: many non-Christians will say something like this: if God created some people who would be saved and thus given eternal life, and He also created other people who would not be saved and thus receive eternal punishment, why didn't He just create the saved people only? It seems that a loving God COULD NOT create beings who were doomed from the start to damnation. My answer to this question has always involved some element of freewill; with that possibility removed, I can't see what else would still be consistent with what we know of God's nature. Second: I quote 2 Peter 3:9 (RSV), "The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." Admittedly there is some question here as to whom the "all" refers to. Nevertheless, if it were ONLY God's wish that were necessary to bring about repentance, surely He would not need to be forbearing toward us? This seems to imply that some element of our own cooperation is necessary for the repentance to come about... Notice that I've used words like "seems" a lot in the above paragraphs. This is because I'm still in the process of trying to develop and express my own understanding of what the Bible teaches on this question. Right now I would say that the Scriptural teachings on predestination are in a collective sense (i.e., God knew that some would reject His offer of salvation, others would accept, and this is what He planned for those who would accept). But this is only a quick summary of a partially developed understanding, and I would appreciate any helpful comments. - Charles Ferenbaugh