Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: MATH1H3@uhvax1.uh.edu (David H. Wagner) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Paul and the Law Message-ID: Date: 7 Dec 89 06:58:07 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston Lines: 68 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , davidbu@tekigm2.men.tek.com (David Buxton) writes: > It is my observation that the writings of Paul are largely where people > find their texts by which to do away with the law. I think the Lutheran belief on "justication by grace, through faith, apart from works" must surely be the mathematical extreme point among Christians on this issue -- which is not to say that Lutherans are wrong, but that others believe or practice some interpolation between the Lutheran faith and works-righteousness, i.e. (other church) = (epsilon)*(works) + (1-epsilon)*grace. I don't mean this to be offensive, but I am just trying to define "extreme point". My main point is that even Lutherans, and I would dare say no Christian, would assert that Paul, or any Christian, did or does away with the Law. In the New Testament, however, the Law has a different purpose. Lutherans worked this out pretty well in the Formula of Concord. They had to, because the Lutheran belief is vulnerable to misinterpretation of a kind that would minimize or "do away" with the Law. I don't have the Formula in front of me, but I think I can summarize it on this point. The purpose of the Law is different for the unbeliever than for the believer. For the unbeliever, the Law: 1. Shows him his sin, and the need for forgiveness. 2. Acts as a curb against unrighteousness (i.e., to preserve peace in society). For the believer, the Law serves the above purposes also, but in addition, the Law serves as a guide for our sanctification. The Law has this effect only on the believer, because only the believer has the new man created in him so that he can respond to the Law with obedience. The works that result from this do not however, serve the purpose of earning or contributing to salvation. They are simply the evidence of salvation. Many of the scriptures cited in the first posting on this subject address the problem that false teachers were teaching faith without works. I think the passage from Peter falls in this category, although mainly it addressed scoffers who denied that judgement day would come (As do many modern 'theologians'). I might suggest that the fact that the scriptures testify that the teaching of faith without works was a problem in the early church, is a witness that the Lutheran viewpoint is the one that was preached by Paul, but misunderstood or misconstrued by some. 'nuff said for now. David H. Wagner My opinions and beliefs are completely separated from my employer's lack thereof. [There are certainly groups other than Lutheran that believe in justification by faith alone. Indeed I think this is a fairly common Protestant belief. (other church) = (epsilon)*(works) + (1-epsilon)*grace The problem is what to put on the left of the equation. I think generally Protestants (and probably also Catholics) don't consider works and grace as different points along the same axis. Rather they see them as playing rather different roles. What those roles are and how they fit together may differ. But I think this is more an issue of topology than different constants in a linear combination. Note also that Law and works are not synonymous. Although Protestants believe you are not saved by good works, they certainly expect Christians to do good works. Thus I think everyone agrees that they have relevance to Christians in at least some context. There are some Protestants that do not believe the Law has any relevance for Christians. I think this means that you are not a mathematical extreme point after all... --clh]