Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: jamesa@amadeus.wr.tek.com (James Akiyama) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Once Saved Always Saved Message-ID: Date: 11 Dec 89 08:30:07 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR. Lines: 116 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Dave Mielke writes: > The problem with this line of reasoning is that it conflicts with your > earlier and correct statement that a person is only saved through the > actions of God Himself. If I can remain unsaved by the act of refusing > then I necessarily become saved by the act of not refusing, i.e. > accepting. At the very least I would be able to arrogantly stand before > God in heaven and cponfidently proclaim that at least one of the > reasons that I am there is because I did not refuse His offer. Not necessarily. Part of this depends on how God reveals His will. How enticing is His offer? He could appear before some in a manner that He foreknows will result in salvation and yet leave the actual acceptance to man. I realize that this is really playing with what "freewill" is and what "predestination" is, but I believe that both may, in fact, be true. God may reveal Himself to some and yet leave the door to destruction still open, knowing that the person's own desire will lead him to a road of destruction. To others, God may reveal Himself in such fullness that He foreknows the person will turn. Let me state two examples. First, in Exodus Moses sometimes lists God as hardening the heart of Pharaoh, while at other times Moses gives Pharaoh as hardening his own heart. In fact, the two seem to be the same; as stated in Exodus 9:34-10:1: Exodus 9:34-10:1 When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts. So Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the Lord had said through Moses. Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them (NIV). Verse 9:34 seems to indicate Pharaoh hardened his own heart, while 10:1 seems to indicate that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. I believe that God "harden" the heart of Pharoah by simply removing some of His grace; the natural course of man was then downward. Yet the choice was still Pharaoh's; he could have chosen to remain enlighten but did not. God is still ultimately in control; He knows exactly how much support each of us need to remain obedient. The second example of freewill is Joshua 24:15, which states: But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord." (NIV) Again, the choice seems to be left to the people. Of course, this must be contrasted against verses which seem to indicate predestination, which you have broughten up in the past. My "favorite" (which seems to answer a lot of questions) is Paul's example of the potter and clay in Romans 9:13-25: Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory--even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," (NIV). Here Paul indicates that God takes mercy on those He wants and hardens those He wants. We cannot resist His will. We are His creation for His glory; not the other way around. I believe, as stated above, that "predestination" and "freewill" are not mutually exclusive. God may give us a freewill, but then elect those whom He predestined by presenting an enticing offer He foreknows you will not refuse. He may present His offer to others as well (as I previously gave from a quote in Hebrews 6:4-6). But, again, He knows that these offers will be refused. To others, He may never explicitly reveal Himself, although the Bible makes clear that revelation is found in all of creation. Paul (above) seems to indicate that these "unsaved people" are for us, the believers, to show us the riches of His glory. But this is somewhat unclear since Paul presents this as a question that is he never answers (as an interesting sidelight, note that this is the only question Paul presents here that is never answered; I have often pondered the significance of this). Again, this is really a theological debate which may be pointless. I believe that there are mysteries which God has yet to reveal; this may well be one of them. If it is, then I must rest in faith (trusting in those things which are yet unseen). Psalms 131:1 seems to clarify this point: My heart is not proud, O Lord, my eyes are not haughty; I do not concern myself with great matters or things too wonderful for me. Again, my purpose here is not to argue, but hopefully to enlighten other that they may enlighten me. At the same time I realize that certains things are not known; still, curiosity lurks on. -- James E. Akiyama jamesa@amadeus.WR.TEK.COM UUCP: ....!uunet!tektronix!amadeus.WR.TEK.COM!jamesa ARPA: @RELAY.CS.NET:jamesa%amadeus.WR.TEK.COM [I think your understanding is what at least some people mean by predestination. Generally predestination was interpreted as being consistent with human responsbility for their decisions. --clh]