Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!jarthur!uci-ics!ucla-cs!smcnet!byoder From: byoder@smcnet.UUCP (Brian Yoder) Newsgroups: alt.individualism Subject: Re: Kennedy wasn't the first. Summary: America was founded on what????!?!?!!? Message-ID: <526@smcnet.UUCP> Date: 19 Jan 90 06:25:04 GMT References: <89348.161937BROWN@NCSUVM.BITNET> <1372@becker.UUCP> Organization: Santa Monica College Telecom, Santa Monica, CA. Lines: 90 In article , nelson@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Russ Nelson) writes: [Chris Conway, Gerry Gleason, and Phil Ronzone on the Declaration of Independence ] > You must be young, to be so optimistic and idealistic. > The American Revolution was fought over money, not over freedom. I'm surprised that you have positioned yourself so explicitly. Then you believe that the revolutionary soldiers who risked and lost their lives in the revolution were cynical money-grubbers? Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, and the others didn't care a whit about freedom or democracy? Have you ever read any of their books? How you reached such a conclusion is beyond me...You must be blinded by irrational anti-americanism. Yeah, that's it. > Look > at our northern neighbor. What are the chief differences? Certainly > not freedoms, as they have nearly identical freedoms. No, it's money, > because Canadians are, in general, poorer than Americans. Oh, I see. People with money are not entitled to establish free republics (nor live in them, right?). Only poor people are allowed to establish governments right? The fact that Canadians are roughly as rich as americans (ever been to Canada? I have.) is of little consequence, by what logic does the income of a person determine his desire to live in a free country? Are rich people incapable of moral judgement? Do you really beleive all of these things? > Look at the people who wrote the Constitution. They are, to a man, rich. Heavens no! That means they MUST have had no interest in liberty! ;-) > Who was the first President? Why, the richest man in the country, of > course. I don't have any statistics on Washington's wealth, but I doubt he was the richest man in the country. Do you have some information I don't? Be that as it may, this displays the usual ridiculous attitude that wealth implied immorality. If Washingto was such a bad guy, why didn't he accept the offer to become King of the US? Why did he resign his office? Was lying when he talked about not establishing presidential dynasties? He must have been...he committed the ultimate sin...he had money! > Was the Constitution ratified by the people? As I remember, it was ratified by the elected representatives of each state (remember, this was 13 years after the DOI). > No, it was ratified > by the state, using force and fraud. Fraud? I doubt it. For such outrageous accusations, you provide very little explanation or evidence. Just knee-jerk anti-americanism. Force? Absolutely not! In what sense was the constitution implemented by "force"? That's just silly. It was ratified by elected officials and was widely thought of (not just in the US either) as a declaration of proper governmental principles beyond any acheived before. History seems to have proven them right. > A document of freedom? Bah, humbug! > > No, the concept that the American Revolution was fought to ensure > freedom is as pernacious an information virus as the FCC Modem-Tariff > virus making the rounds. Unfortunately, there is very little chance > of killing it, whereas the Modem-Tariff virus may be killed due to a > posting in news.announce.important. Yet, I try anyway. I suppose you can come up with a better guarantee of freedom than the bill of rights? I'd be interested to hear what kind of document you could imagine that would be a better job (aside from nit-picking or changes made since that time, like abolition of slavery and universal suffrage). Perhaps if you bothered to read some of the writings of Paine or Jefferson your opinions might change (even though americaphobes are notoriously bull-headed). I don't like the consequences of the government established by Lenin, but I doubt that he intended for it to result in the kind of moral and economic disaster that is did. I am surprised that americaphobes don't hold Washington in at least as high regard as I hold Lenin (even though it's not very high). Brian Yoder -- -<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>- | Brian Yoder | answers *byoder(); | | uunet!ucla-cs!smcnet!byoder | He takes no arguments and returns the answers | -<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-