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From: pkr@maddog.sgi.com (Phil Ronzone)
Newsgroups: alt.individualism
Subject: Re: Phil Ronzone's stereo
Message-ID: <2947@odin.SGI.COM>
Date: 18 Jan 90 19:38:57 GMT
References: <2310@odin.SGI.COM> <12569@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <2356@odin.SGI.COM> <1990Jan13.090428.25775@agate.berkeley.edu> <2818@odin.SGI.COM> <21643@unix.cis.pitt.edu> <2904@odin.SGI.COM> <13024@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
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In article <13024@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>>I own all my property. There are three kinds:
>
>>p0 = my own life
>
>Fair enough.  What does this mean?  To what extent may you defend your
>ownership?  May you violate somebody's property rights (steal his food)
>to protect your right to your own life?

You may not initiate force. No, you can't steal somebody elses food.
LIFEBOAT case: you've had a boating accident. You are in the water
without a life jacket. You are holding a Stinger missile. You notice
a jet plane overhead. You figure if you shoot the jet down, you
can get something to hang on to, maybe even a life jacket, from the
debris. Q: May you shoot the jet down? A: NO.



>May you restrict another's actions to lessen a THREAT to your own life?
Define threat. Imminent objective initiation of force? yes.


>Life-as-property is tricky.
No, I don't thinks so.


>>p1 = my ideas and thoughts (i.e., Einstein owns E=MC**2)
>
>In what sense does/did he own it?  Did he have the right to control the
>use of it to derive other products of thought, e.g., further work in
>physics?
It is his. Yes.


>Could this ownership be transferred?
Yes.


>What happens when two people have the same idea independently.  One
>idea, two "owners."  What does p1 get you, and how does it differ from
>p0 and p2?
They both own it.


>Suppose we said that Einstein did NOT own that idea.  How would the
>world be different?  How would E's life have been different?
I don't know.


>>p2 = my tangible derivatives (farm the ground, I own the
>>     corn)
>
>Would that be YOUR ground you're farming?  How did you get it?  From
>whom?  How did the original owner get it?
Land is NOT a derivitive. I can't own it. I can own all the improvements.
I can rent the "land" (it's improvements) from another. The act of
discovery is an improvement, whether it is an idea or land.



>>In many cases of p2, ownership is immediately transferred
>>upon production via prior agreement as per most blue and
>>white collar jobs.
>
>Hmmm, doesn't seem to work for p1 -- or does the ETH (or wherever) own
>that formula after all?  

I don't what you are mumbling about.



>Now, let's think about coerced transfer of ownership (it happens!) and
>how to remedy it.
>
>Then, let's consider the conditions that make it realistic even to TALK
>about ownership: you can own something according to the above under any
>conditions, but it may be a pretty useless concept unless certain other
>things obtain as well.  What are they?  

There is no such thing as coerced transfer of ownership. If someone
steals your car, do they own it?

Do YOU own anything, Mr. Lustig? Do you even FEEL that maybe you own something?
No? Excuse me, what's your address??? :-) :-)



------Me and my dyslexic keyboard----------------------------------------------
Phil Ronzone   Manager Secure UNIX           pkr@sgi.COM   {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr
Silicon Graphics, Inc.               "I never vote, it only encourages 'em ..."
-----In honor of Minas, no spell checker was run on this posting---------------