Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!willett!ForthNet
From: ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Forth in print
Message-ID: <277.UUL1.3#5129@willett.UUCP>
Date: 17 Jan 90 00:52:46 GMT
Organization: Latest Link in ForthNet Chain (Pittsburgh, PA)
Lines: 80


 Date: 01-16-90 (07:11)              Number: 279
   To: MICHAEL HAM                   Refer#: NONE
 From: BOB JENNER                      Read: 01-16-90 (10:28)
 Subj: BOOK                          Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE

 Hi, Guys -
 This discussion is near and dear to my heart.  Here's two cents'
 worth. 
 -
 It's two cents because I'm of two minds: "give 'em an easy start"
 vs "separate the wheat from the chaff early, it can be rough out
 there".  But on both sides, intentional is probably better than
 accidental.
 -
 In my experience, new users are indeed very fragile.  I suppose
 it's a very human sort of thing to be cautious in unknown and
 potentially dangerous territory, and for many this territory is
 fraught with dangers which are no less problematical for being
 unfounded.  They don't yet know that it's hard to blow up the
 machine.
 -
 I've recently spent considerable time with very new computer
 users, and they are indeed put off by things that are quite
 transparent to me in my normal working persona.  To offer a good
 introduction I need to be very careful to see with their eyes and
 mine at the same time.
 -
 But that's _users_, not programmers.  If this is a book for
 programmers, Forth programmers in particular, then the question
 is more interesting.  Programming in general, and programming
 Forth applications in particular, tends to take one out beyond
 the streetlights.  And at risk of overstating the case, if they
 can't handle the difference between horizontal and vertical .S,
 will they be happy / good in the real world?  Working with
 prototype hardware?  With the average documentation?
 -
 Well, it's easy to wax philosophical and ramble on along the
 lines of scouts vs settlers vs those who never left home; it's
 harder to come up with a solid basis for doing the book one way
 or another, to get it out the door in satisfying and saleable
 shape.
 -
 I think the immediate answer is to keep it scrupulously
 consistent.  It's good pedagogy and good business.  The best-
 selling textbook author trades at least in part on his ability to
 maintain the confidence and relative peace of mind of his
 student.  We're not talking fire-breathing flight instructors
 here.  
 -
 But the other question, of how to teach or foster the ability to
 deal with life's little surprises, and _real_ bugs, well maybe
 it's a real market opportunity!  Some of this, perhaps most of
 it, is not teachable.  Some people are somehow bolder than
 others, and some are simply better equipped to handle it.  
 -
 Intentionally putting errors in a text seems very risky,
 especially a beginner's text and without warning.
 -
 But I think some sort of warning is very much in order, a warning
 about the real world.  Maybe just a list of the "normal" problems
 that have cost us so much.  Like reversed lines in the new
 hardware, flaky chips, bad documentation, skinny estimates and
 deadlines, not even suspecting DOS could be the culprit; not to
 mention software things like not initializing variables and not
 testing for / preventing unintended stack growth.  Not just the
 big hairy bugs, but also the little stupid time wasters.  And I
 think they mostly don't need solutions, just a hint about the
 existence of the threat.
 -
 I think a newcomer would be pleased to pay cash for a book that
 included such a list, especially if told how valuable it is,
 maybe via a war story or two.  Me, too!  
 -
 How I do ramble on sometimes.  Cheers -

 NET/Mail : LMI Forth Board, Los Angeles, CA (213) 306-3530             
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