Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: lab@fibercom.com (Lance Beckner) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Predestination (long) Message-ID: Date: 18 Jan 90 04:25:30 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: FiberCom, Inc., Roanoke, Virginia Lines: 448 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu INTRODUCTION: It is only my goal here to share with others what I have learned. I hope that someone my benefit from my study. This is not my proclamation of *the* answer to the predestination question. I of course hope and pray that my conclusions are at least partially correct. This posting is the result of careful and prayerful study. Since I have been reading the discussions on this group while also continuing my study, not everything here will be original. Please insert "IMHO" wherever it seems appropriate. All scripture quotations are from the New King James Version. PART 1: THE CREATION AND FALL OF MAN Now exactly why God created man is not clear. Although there does seem to be some evidence that fellowship was at least *part* of the reason. While Adam and Eve were in their unfallen state, God blessed them and told them to fill the earth. We can only assume that it was God's intention that they fill the Earth with sinless humans such as themselves. I won't go into all of the details of the fall since I don't feel that it is really necessary to do so. However, I do think that it is important to note that if Adam and Eve would have "filled the earth" in their sinless state, they would have produced sinless offspring (assuming that the offspring didn't go for the tree). In there sinful state, therefore, they produced sinful offspring. (Romans 5:12) The results of the fall are pretty serious. In particular, the relationship between God and man *really* turned bad. All of a sudden, man had a wicked heart and contempt for God. Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Psalm 14:2-3 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who seek God. They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no not one. Eccl 7:20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin. Even our "good" deeds and best behavior don't count for much. Isaiah 64:6 But we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; we all fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah goes on to say, in the last part of verse 7, that because of these iniquities, God has hidden his face from us. The result of our sin (and our sin nature), is separation from God in the present, and for eternity. What I want to point out is that everyone is basically the same. If the earth had been filled by sinless humans, then we would all be sinless humans. We would have all had fellowship with God there would be no problem of separation, and no need for a Savior. Sounds nice doesn't it? But we know that sin did enter in. And the important thing to realize is that we are all still basically the same. That is, there is really no difference between myself and Adolf Hitler, there is no difference between Billy Graham and Nero. The good people are good in our eyes, but fall way short of God's standard. The bad people are bad in our eyes, and fall just as short of God's standard as anyone. That is why no one can come to the Father except through Jesus. PART 2: THE SAME, BUT DIFFERENT. As already discussed, all men are basically the same. None of us seek God. Yet, in spite of all of this, there are still two categories of people: the SAVED and the LOST. Why? If everyone is a God rejecting, rebellious soul, why can we be divided into the SAVED and LOST categories? There are, as I see it, two options here: Option 1 God hand picks those who will be saved and those who will be lost. In other words, God hates some while He loves others. As unappealing as this looks on the surface, there actually is scriptural support for this view. A. In Proverbs 6:16-19, we read of the seven things that are an abomination to the LORD. The last two, a false witness speaking lies, and one who sows discord among the brethren, tell us that God not only hates the acts, but He also hates the people committing the acts. In other words, it would appear from this passage of scripture that God does not love the sinner while hating their sin. Rather, He hates the sinner and their sin. B. The Bible says that God loved Jacob and Hated Esau (See Malachi 1 and Romans 9). The passage in Romans continues on with the love/hate aspect of Gods character. It is probably one of the strongest supports for the idea that God picks and chooses who will be saved and who will be lost. Please carefully read the ninth chapter, especially verses 18 through 24. The implication here is that God specifically created some for destruction and others for glory. C. Mark 4:11-12. And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, so that 'Seeing they may see and not perceive, and hearing they may hear and not understand; lest they should turn, and their sins be forgiven them.'" It would appear, from this passage of scripture, that there are some people out there that God does not want to save. Option 2 Although we are all the same, there is *some* difference (and God loves us all). There is also scriptural support for this view. A. We Are All The Same. I know that we have already looked at this some. But I want to go further and show that there is no difference between someone who is lost, and a Christian before he knew Christ. 1. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy 1:15 2. And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. Ephesians 2:1-3 In the first example, Paul calls himself the chief sinner. Obviously, he is a Christian at this point in his life. But he is telling Timothy that Jesus came to save sinners. And he identifies himself with that lot. In the second example, Paul is telling the Ephesians (Christians) that they were once just like the others, sons of disobedience deserving God's wrath. There is basically no difference between what a Christian *used* to be, and what a non-christian is now. B. God Loves Us All. Even though there is scriptural evidence that God hates sinners (Proverbs 6), there is also abundant evidence that God loves sinners and wishes for all men to be saved. We love Him because He first loved us. 1 Jn 4:19 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth. 1 Timothy 2:2-3 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." Luke 19:10 If Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost, and all of humanity is lost, then Jesus came to save all of humanity. Obviously, we can not ignore the passage in Proverbs 6 that tells us that God hates sinners. However, we must look at that passage in the light of the other passages that tell us that God loves all of humanity. The only way that I can see to reconcile the difference, is to say that God does hate us because of our sins and our sin nature, and yet, at the same time, He loves us. Why does He love us? I don't know. The only possible answer that I can come up with is that He loves us because He wants to. C. There Is *Some* Difference. The conclusion that there is a difference between the saved and the lost is inescapable. That is to say, the saved are saved, and the lost are lost. Even if you follow the theory that God chooses some to be saved and others to be lost, you still must concede that there is a difference. The fact that some are chosen and others are unchosen make them different. But here I am going to try to look at another difference. As we have already established, there is none that seek after God. If it were not for divine intervention, all would be lost. But, God did intervene. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8). Okay, so, God intervened. Big deal. We still aren't the type of people that go around seeking after God. Why would we seek out His Son? The sad fact of the matter is, we wouldn't. Rather than seeking God, it seems that He seeks us out. "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." Luke 19:10 It is God who is working to bridge the gap between sinful man and Himself. But, if God wants *all* of sinful man to be saved, why will only some be saved? This is where we get into the 'difference'. ...He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Hebrews 11:6 And yet, we have already shown that we do not seek God, He seeks us. So a better way of looking at the passage in Hebrews would be to say that the Lord is a rewarder of those who *respond* to His seeking. Salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8) and the gift is available to all because He is willing that none should perish (2 Peter 3:9), and he desires that all men be saved (1 Timothy 2:3). However, many will reject this gift because they love the darkness rather than the light (John 3:19). Truly, none of us would seek after God on our own. And salvation is the work of God. He starts it and He finishes it. But the offer is open to all. Christians are not saved because we ask God to save us. Rather, Christians are saved because when God asks the question, "Will you let me save you?" We answer, "Yes". I have always believed that we do not ask God to give us salvation, we thank Him for giving it to us. This is the difference. Some will realize that they need the savior and accept God's gift. Others will not realize their need, and reject His gift. (I even know of some who realize their need and *still* reject His gift because they do not want to change the way that they live. I can not understand this at all.) PART 3: EXPLANATIONS If option 2 is the correct one, then what about all of the problems that option 1 gives us? Hopefully, I have already adequately explained Proverbs 6. That God does hate us (because of our sin), and yet He also loves us (because He wants to). The passage in Romans 9 is a little more difficult to figure out. Indeed, I may not have it all figured out. The first problem, that of Jacob and Esau, may not be as serious as it first appears. When God says that He hated Esau, what does it mean? Possibly this is the same type of situation where Jesus tells us that we must hate our mothers and fathers (Luke 14:26). Certainly He did not really mean that we should *hate* them. In context, we see that Jesus was talking about discipleship; and that, if we wanted to follow Him, we had to hate our loved ones. I think that most people would agree that Jesus wanted for us to follow Him even if it meant going against the wishes of those that we love. He wanted us to choose Him if it came to making a choice. I think that is what Romans 9 is talking about. God made a choice between Jacob and Esau. He chose Jacob over Esau. The second problem with this passage, that of vessels for glory and vessels for destruction is a bit harder to explain. But as I see it, we have the same situation (and hopefully this will be clearer in PART 5). God has pre-determined that those who will respond to his offer of salvation by accepting it, will be partakers of glory. Conversely, those that reject His offer will be destroyed. Unfortunately, I don't really have a good answer for Mark 4:11-12. But I don't think that it is as big of a problem as it appears to be on the surface. This passage tells us that Jesus spoke in parables so that not everyone would know what He was really saying. Yet, often, His own disciples would have to ask for an explanation. If the things were spoken in parables to keep some from under- standing and repenting, then that was only true (for whatever reason) for that particular time. Because now, with the written word of God, we do have the explanations for those parables. With the explanations recorded, the parables are no longer "mysteries". Besides, if God does choose those that will be saved, and the natural man (without God's help) can not understand the things of God, then a clear direct gospel message from the Savior Himself would not bring one to repentance if God had not chosen that one to be born again. In short, to presume that God would choose to save some of sinful man, while choosing to exclude a majority of men from the offer of this gift, is a bit inconsistent. That is to say, if all of sinful men were deserving of God's wrath, and God hates sinners, on what basis would He choose some? PART 4: ARGUMENTS ANSWERED Below are the arguments (as best as I can recall) against my position. I will try to answer these in a manner that is consistent with the Word of God. A. God's word returning void. One argument that was mentioned once before, is that if God says His Word will not return void (Isaiah 55:11), then surely all who the Word went out to would be saved. I am not sure that this has to be the case. If the Lord's Word goes out to one hundred people, and five people accept God's gift of eternal life, has His word returned void? I would say not. What if only one was saved? Again, I would say that the Word of God did not return void. Remember, there is rejoicing in the heavens when just one sinner repents (Luke 15:7) B. Reason to boast (Ephesians 2:9). If we are saved by responding to the work of God in our life, do we have reason to boast? Surely, a person who "figures out" salvation could say, "Hey, I'm saved because *I* figured out what I must do to be saved." Or they could say, "God gave me the gift, and *I* was smart enough to accept; but *they* were too dumb to accept this great offer." The problem is that a person such as this would be missing the point. The fact of the matter is, when we come to the cross, we come as beggars. We deserve the full force of God's wrath. It is as if we are drowning, going under for the third time, and God throws us a rope. Surely someone in this position would not come out of the water boasting. Rather, they would be forever grateful to the One who had saved them. So too, when we realize exactly what God has done for us, can only offer Him thanks and praise for being the wonderful merciful God that He is. Besides, if we were to take the view that "God chose to love me, but He chose to hate you", there could also be reason to boast. Surely the thought would occur, "There must be *something* about me that He liked if He saved me but left so- and-so lost." Yes, even if God did pick and choose this way, I would agree that the boasting would be wrong. But so would the boasting be wrong in the previous example. Regardless of which model is correct with regard to predestination, there is never any reason to boast. PART 5: SO WHAT *IS* PREDESTINATION? Well, the bible *does* teach that there is such a thing as predestination. But what exactly is it? I think that the answer is tied up in the words: "predestination", "election", and "foreknowledge". Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Ephesians 1:4-5 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good purpose of His will. 1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for the obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. As I see it, the elect are elect because of God's foreknowledge. That is, God knew before the foundation of the world who would respond in a positive manner to His offer. These are the elect. The chosen ones were chosen by God because they would accept His free gift of eternal life. And, according to the passage in Romans, those whom God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. This is the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer, to continue to change a person from within to be what God wants them to be. He also predestined us (who would believe) to be adopted into His family. Does this mean that God actively works in every person's life to give them a chance? Maybe not. The offer of salvation is a legitimate offer to anyone who wants to accept it. However, God would definitely know who would and would not accept it. In other words, if God knew that no matter how hard He were to try, that a certain individual would still reject His offer, He would certainly be justified in not even bothering with the individual. That person would still be guilty of rejecting the offer even though God did not actively pursue the relationship. PART 6: THE PROBLEMS WITH MY VIEW. Admittedly, my answer does not neatly tie up all of the loose ends the way that I would like for it to. There is still the unanswered question about Mark 4:11-12. There are also a couple of other problems that I will try to define below. (And quite probably more that I am unaware of) Why The Difference? If we are all basically the same, why is it that some will respond to God's work in their lives but others will not? I don't know the answer to that. But it is not as troubling as the question, "if we are all basically the same, why does a just God love some while He hates others?" Faith As A Gift. If faith is a gift of God (as Eph. 2:8 says) then why has God given some this gift, but not others? Maybe He gives the gift of faith to those that begin to respond, but does not give it to the unresponsive sinner. PART 7: THANKS As I said at the beginning, this is by no means my proclamation of "THE ANSWER". I do hope and pray that the Lord has led me to His truth in this study. Of course, I have no way of knowing for sure just how right or wrong I am. No matter how sincere my efforts of objective study are, I am still a sinful man whose own ideas and preconceived notions could get in the way. I am just thankful that we don't have to pass a theology exam to get into Heaven. I thank God that I can enter in by the blood of Christ. Peace to you brothers and sisters, Lance -- Lance A. Beckner INTERNET: lab@fibercom.com FiberCom, Inc. UUCP: ...!uunet!fibercom!lab P.O. Box 11966 FAX: (703) 342-5961 Roanoke, VA 24022-1966 PHONE: (703) 342-6700