Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!uunet!microsoft!roberth From: roberth@microsoft.UUCP (Robert HESS) Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple Subject: Re: Development Environments on 2GS. Summary: TML Pascal II -and- Orca C Keywords: pascal C Message-ID: <53605@microsoft.UUCP> Date: 16 Mar 90 17:43:22 GMT References: <14399@cbnewsc.ATT.COM> Distribution: na Organization: Microsoft Corp., Redmond WA Lines: 180 ======================================================================= I am posting this to comp.sys.apple *only* because the question was posted here. Everybody should now be posting their questions and comments to comp.sys.apple2 ======================================================================= K.C.Archie (kca@cbnewsc.ATT.COM) Asks: | I am interested in comments on different development environments | on the Apple 2GS. I am interested in Orca C vs. TML pascal 2. | (...and provided some specific points...) Both systems are pretty good. The *major* problems in TML Pascal II, are in the Text Editor, and the Resource Editor. The Text Editor has a couple system crash, and memory trashing type bugs due to bugs in the new TextEdit control. And the Resource editor has some problems with editing menus. Orca C also has some problems. I don't use it much, but I have had system crashes during editing, and compilation. I have also heard that it doesn't strictly follow K&R C, for example this will compile fine: void main ( int argc, char *argv[]) {... ...but these variations will fail: void main (argc, argv) int argc; char *argv[]; {... void main ( int argc, char **argv) {... (These examples were sent me by somebody else, I haven't tried them myself yet...) Now as to your specific points of interest: | Support for Toolbox access: | write my own assembler functions, is there a library of routines. TML does not 'really' support using code imported from any other source, this includes assembly code. It is possible that using the 'CodeResource' resource, you can write short assembly routines, and call them from TML. I have been meaning to check this out, but haven't had the time yet. If anybody else has, I'd be interested in seeing what you have done. Orca C does allow true INLINE codeing. (TML 'trys' to, but only allows a single byte, right Dave?) And although I haven't tried it yet, it looks pretty good, with actual assembly directives and labels. Both systems provide almost full access to the toolbox routines. As I remember, there were a couple routines that I ran across that Orca C didn't have access to. TML may have a couple too, but I haven't found any yet. | Resource editing | I am not really sure what this is but it appears to be | a useful tool for generating desktop applications. TML comes with a 'graphical' resource editor. It is limited in its capablilities, and the resources it supports (and it has some bugs), but for the beginner, it is far easier then trying to use something like the REZ compiler available from APDA. I have switched to using the REZ editor for my TML resources. I was needing to use some resources that TML didn't allow (like ICONs), and I also was getting frustrated with having my resource trashed if I tried editing my menu. | Examples Code | Are there templates of programs to open windows, do graphics, etc. Both systems come with several good example programs. TML also sells a separate package of source code examples called "TML Source Code Library II" (for about $50). These are some pretty good examples, most (all?) of them written by Vince Cooper. | Desk Accessories | Are there examples or templates to help write these? Again, both systems provide this. TML's method, is FAR better then Orca's. In Orca, they tell you to write your NDA as a regular program, then once that is working, make a few modifications to it to turn it into an NDA, then copy the program to the Desk.Accs folder and reboot your machine to test it.... Yikes! a little severe. In TML, your code is NDA code from the start. If you compile it, TML will temorarily add the item to the 'Apple' menu and let you test it out to make sure it works. | Debugging Aids | Are there any and what sort? Orca has a debugger, that many people say is pretty good. The couple times I've tried to use it, I crashed, but that might have been my problem. TML doesn't have anything to help with debugging, this is *very* unfortunate. | Compiler Speed | Will I be able to eat lunch while compiling TML is faster then Orca (IMHO). But both are pretty good, and unless you are compiling a LARGE application, you should barely have time to enjoy a couple sips of coffee. | Code Speed | Can I write games in it? | Will the users of my applications fall asleep while using them? Neither compiler will generate code as fast as tight assembly would be. But both appear to be quite decent. I have seen a couple simple games written with both systems, and they are pretty good. Now Crystal Quest wasn't written with either one, and I doubt it could be, but you probably weren't thinking about something like that... | Building Tools | Something like make. TML has nothing like make, but for a single file source, you don't need it. You just tell it to compile it, and it is compiled, and linked. In your code, you specify other 'units' to include, and the compiler will find them, and link them in. Orca is able to use the normal APW command scripts to perform 'make' type functionality. | Editors | What are they like? TML uses the new TextEdit control (thank goodness, their earlier editor was SOOOOO SLOOOOOOW). Unfortunately, this means they fully exhibit the bugs that currently exist in this editor. But it is relatively speedy, and allows user selectable fonts and sizing (yeah!). Orca has their own editor that they wrote. It does not allow user selectable fonts, in fact, the font it uses is not one you will find anywhere else. But this allowed them to tune their editor graphics specifically around this font, and frankly, I am amazed at how fast it is. | Standards | Do they compile the standard language? TML essentially follows standard pascal formats, they have of course added some extensions of their own, and have not implemented some features that aren't appropriate. Their manual lists all of these in their appendix. Orca does not appear to be fully K&R yet (as noted above). Will it? Only Mike knows for sure. | Documentation | Is it any good. Both come with decent documentation. There will always be things they leave out, but that's where the net comes in handy :-> Niether can be used as a 'primer' for the language. You can easily find other books available to help you learn the language. Hopefully, this helped you with your questions... -Robert __________________________________________________________________________ ##### ####### | Robert B. Hess, Microsoft Corp., Redmond, WA ###### ####### |----------------------------------------------------- ####### ####### | roberth@microsof.uu.net #### ##### #### | {decvax, uunet, uw-beaver}!microsof!roberth #### ### #### |_____________________________________________________ "...my opinions are strictly my own, and not those of my employer..."