Xref: utzoo comp.sys.apple:23745 comp.sys.apple2:253 Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!bridge2!jarthur!spectre.ccsf.caltech.edu!tybalt.caltech.edu!toddpw From: toddpw@tybalt.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple,comp.sys.apple2 Subject: Re: GS (What you want _requires_ moving closer to the Amiga...) Message-ID: <1990Mar19.114428.19230@spectre.ccsf.caltech.edu> Date: 19 Mar 90 11:44:28 GMT References: <90030820242943@masnet.uucp> <1990Mar9.205605.2836@spectre.ccsf.caltech.edu> <1160.2600f4c1@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu> <1990Mar17.122507.18534@spectre.ccsf.caltech.edu> <1162.2603c187@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu> Sender: news@spectre.ccsf.caltech.edu Organization: California Institute of Technology Lines: 121 jwwalden@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Darc Tangent) writes: > Commodore's marketing definitely sucks. Commodore is a huge corporation and >will certainly be there after the sale, but they fail to project that fact. True, and now that they've hired ex-Apple Marketing people that may change. For better or for worse I really don't know... >>>Where are the GS CAD programs? TeX applications? Math progrms like Maple and >>>MatLab? The GS doesn't have them because it doesn't have the processing or >>>graphics power for those types of applications. The Amiga does. >> >> We're aware of that. We've been flaming Apple for years and they haven't >> listened until now, and they seem to need convincing that it is worth their >> time and effort to produce a decent GS -- a task so simple that third parties >> have provided the (sadly) necessary add-ons for years! >> > Yes, I also flamed Apple for many years about the same problems, but I still >haven't seen evidence that they have listened. I hope they have- just a faster >processor would be enough to make the GS usable (for GS specific applications). True. I'd also like to see a real redone chipset because their are some horrid bottlnecks in the GS that were forced on them by design and budget constraints (that's why they kept the Mega II when it would have been far smarter to scrap it. Now they have the resources to reimplement it so that it is better in every way and still fully compatible, and they will be signing their own death warrant in the low end if they think that a Low Cost Mac is going to uproot Amiga and Tandy -- both will stomp it to death like they have the current GS! >>> The Amiga >>>certainly has as many word processors, dtp programs, spreadsheets, and data >>>bases as the GS (not counting all the ancient general Apple II software that >>>is hopelessly behind the times (I'm not talking about the newer Apple II >>>software like DB Master Pro, etc.)). >> >> Hopelessly behind the times? They still work! Why stop using something >> because it is old, when it still does what I want better than anything else >> available? >> > If it does what you want, then use it; however, much of the older software >doesn't do what I want and newer software provides more capabilities and is >generally better supported. What I'm trying to say is that large quantities >of old programs are not necessarily better than smaller numbers of newer more >capable programs.Number of software packages is not a measure of good software >availability. Point taken. Number of _new_ and _updated_ packages is. The GS is doing miserably in that score and Apple is entirely to blame for that. We've finally got a decent system (5.0) and the big names have decided not to support it! >>> Of course, for graphics and sound >>>processing, there is much more available on the Amiga, >> >> Graphics, yes. Sound, HELL NO. Not until the Amiga has a 32 voice synthesizer >> on board. You've never heard of SoundSmith, I take it. And when the new sound >> tools start showing up in applications... >> > No, I haven't heard of Soundsmith, and yes, the GS's sound hardware is >definitely better (although you really do want a stereo card), but there is >a lot of Amiga sound software out there and you did admit that you were several >years behind on Amiga software. Right. SoundSmith is a 14 track sequencer for the ensoniq and it sounds great! With any luck it will support the new sound tools in its final release (does it already?) and if the code becomes available then we might see some great sound coming from a lot more programs. I want to see an NDA that plays soundsmith songs so I can listen to them while I do other desktop stuff. I wonder if it would work from Prodos 8 stuff too? heh, soundsmith songs in Kermit! What's sad is that the Amiga spent two years figuring out how to do that already, and all Apple has to show so far is Multifinder... >> There are qualities that the Apple II has that the >> Amiga does not, and probably never will. Until the Amiga has a programming >> language and a hands-on machine language environment built in I will never >> buy one. They are what I like most about my Apple II's and I wouldn't give >> them up for the world. I'd rather see a machine like my Apple //f, that does >> anything I'd want from an Amiga and still gives me my II. > By built-in I assume you mean in ROM? Why? ROM languages are difficult >to update and modify. I prefer the vareity and choice of non-ROM programming >languages. I'm talking about good ol' AppleSloth BASIC. More than adequate for many small projects and always there before you even boot a disk. I've written cheap BASIC hacks to do so many things that would be a pain to do with a real development system but the point is that I usually need the convenience far more than the power. The original success of the Apple had a lot to do with the built in BASIC, and until I used another machine I didn't realize how much I appreciate it. > What exactly do you mean by a hands-on machine language environment? I >know you are referring to the monitor, but what exactly is it that you want >abou it. The fact that it is there in ROM. The O/S could be blowing big chunks but I can always get into the monitor and mess around _before_ I reboot. Not that it's that handy, but I want the convenience that the monitor and the BASIC in ROM provide, and the feeling of CONTROL that I never get with any other machine, which can simply lock up and the only option is to power cycle it. > Will the Apple IIf ever be built? God, I hope so. It's Apple's only real hope of competing with the Amiga because the Low Cost Mac won't do it well enough or soon enough. There is a chance: I got a letter from Ed Birss (Senior VP, Product Engineering) and I quote, "John Sculley asked me to reply to your letter. I appreciate your suggestion and have forwarded it to my engineering staff." That's about all I can expect right now. With any luck they'll look past the fuzzy ideas in the video section (they have the second version which wasn't posted here to the net; it's on America Online under AHW New Files). I should look over the third version and try to perfect it, and then ship them a fourth version with justifications for each feature, too much of which was sketchy on the copy they have. Ah well, it's spring break at Caltech so guess what I'll be doing. Todd Whitesel toddpw @ tybalt.caltech.edu