Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!samsung!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!sci.ccny.cuny.edu!christ
From: christ@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Chris Thompson)
Newsgroups: rec.birds
Subject: Re: Do birds experience pain as we do?
Message-ID: <1990Mar20.135528.14793@sci.ccny.cuny.edu>
Date: 20 Mar 90 13:55:28 GMT
References: <20693@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU>
Organization: City College of New York - Science Computing Facility
Lines: 63

In article <20693@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU> dragon@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Sam Conway) writes:
>I just spent nearly an hour ripping some very stubborn bloodfeathers out
>of an equally stubborn peregrine falcon.  By the time I was done, it was
>difficult to tell which of us was more stressed out.  In fact, I was so
>upset by the task that I had to turn the bird over to another person to
>clean off the blood when I was done.
>
>My questions are twain:  Do birds feel pain in the same sense that we do,
>or is it, as some claim, a much lesser feeling of discomfort that results
>more in a fear reaction than in the actual physical agony that humans feel;
>secondly, if indeed they do feel pain, is there any form of topical or 
>local anesthetic that can be used safely upon a bird to help reduce the
>stress of an emergency procedure like this?  General anesthesia is
>obviously out of the question, especially for a field rescue.
>
>Please respond via email, if you have any answers to either of these
>questions, particularly the latter.
>

Sorry about replying over the net, but my mailer bounced this.  Here goes.
I don't know about the latter question (I don't KNOW the answer to either
but I can give you a line on who you should ask...)  Anyhow, here in
New York there is this great place called the Animal Medical Center.  I'm
sure that in your line of work, you've heard of it.  Why not drop them a 
line or give them a call?  I'm sure they'd be more than happy to suggest
something.  

Now, the first question, about pain & suffering.  In the upcoming 20th
International Congress in Christchurch (this December) there is a symposium
on pain & stress in birds, under the physiology section.  The conveners
are A. Elzanowski and M. Abs, both from the Federal Republic of Germany.
The titles given in the circular, with authors, are as follows:

	M.J. Gentle (United Kingdom).  Behavioural & physiological       			responses to pain in the chicken.

	C.A. Ristau (USA).  Avian intelligence & suffering.

	J. Mench (USA).  Stress responses in birds.

	J.F. Hurnik (Canada).  Behavioral analyses of pain & suffering
		in domestic birds.

	A. Feduccia (USA).  Stress on birds in zoos.

>Sam Conway                             * If you are not listed on the
>dragon@eleazar.dartmouth.edu           * National Registry of Bone Marrow
>Chemistry Dept., Dartmouth College, NH * Donors...you should be.
>Vermont Raptor Center (VINS)           * Contact your local Red Cross.

You might try giving anyone of these people a buzz.  What you've asked,
is a lot like asking a bird (or any anumal) whether it feels emotions, or
has opinions on things, or, well, take your pick.  We can't KNOW, because
THEY can't tell us.  Now, before anyone flames me on this, let me add that
I have opinions on the matter, and we probably agree on most of them.  But
I stand by what I said- we can't KNOW until we can communicate.

Chris Thompson


-- 
"Never count a human dead until you've seen the body.  And even
then you can make a mistake".
			-Lady Fenring