Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!samsung!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!apple!sun-barr!rutgers!umn-d-ub!cs.umn.edu!thornley
From: thornley@cs.umn.edu (David H. Thornley)
Newsgroups: comp.ai
Subject: Re: Is there a clock in the brain?
Keywords: Experiment.  Time-resolution.  Counter/timer.
Message-ID: <1990Apr11.161426.25263@cs.umn.edu>
Date: 11 Apr 90 16:14:26 GMT
References: <3376@uwm.edu>
Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis - CSCI Dept.
Lines: 83

In article <3376@uwm.edu> markh@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Mark William Hopkins) writes:
>
>   In order to reconstruct the underlying architecture of the brain, the
>ultimate goal of AI, you need to perform tests to determine its functional
>behavior.  In that regard, the brain is just like any other physical system and
>should be treated as such.  It's suprising how far one can go with simple
>"black box" experiments to test the brain like one would test a transistor or
>circuit.  All you're really doing in the process is a kind of "debugging",
>only here you don't have the source code or specification.  That's a process
>called Reverse Engineering: by which one derives the design of a system from
>its functional behavior.
>
...
>   One time in my Biology class in high school, our teacher wanted to prove to
>us that our sense of time was unreliable.  What he did was have the entire
>class time off 300 seconds upon hearing the "GO!" from him.  He simultaneously
>timed off 300 seconds from his watch.  The students were asked to raise their
>hand upon reaching 300.
>
>   What he suspected was that most everyone would raise their hand prematurely,
>as was the case.  On that basis he would demonstrate just how innacurate we
>innately were.
>
>   There was one interesting exception though.  When I reached 300 and raised my
>hand it occurred at exactly the time the teacher said "STOP!".  The impulse to
>raise it actually occurred just BEFORE the teacher said stop, the hand went up
>just after.  To this day I still don't know whether he ignored me or just
>didn't notice...
>
>   Now that I thought more about it, it seemed to me that I must have timed off
>5 minutes right down to the last 1/10th of a second.  This would not be
>suprising considering that I had lots of practice doing this (with feedback
>from an actual clock).

I doubt the teacher could possibly have been that accurate.  Without great
care, you can't use a watch to time more accurately than about a second.  There
is no reason that the biology teacher would take such care for this demo.
I suspect that the GO!-STOP! delay could best be described as 299-301
seconds.  Therefore, the precision of your response was either partly chance
or some other synchronization mechanism was in effect.

>
>   So that prompted a couple questions:
>
>   * Is there a clock in the human brain?  I mean a clock which behaves like a
>counter/timer peripheral as it would for a CPU.
>
>and
>
>   * Can you *program* a clock into your brain?
>
>[description of interesting experiment omitted]
>
>OTHER QUESTIONS:
>
>   There are interesting experiences of mine that have prompted other related
>issues about internal counter/timers in the brain.  I've classified them
>as follows:
>
>(2) SUBLIMATION:
>   There have been occasions in which I have "set up" an internal counter in
>my mind and I would forget all about it.  Moments later I'd suddenly become
>aware of going "...756, 757, ..." and realise that I forgot to "shut off" the
>timer.
>   If you can sublimate that counter/timer like this, then what's controlling
>the process when it's completely unconscious?  Where's the "oscillator"?  And
>just how far can this "sublimation" be carried out?

Back in my bachelor days, I broke my kitchen timer.  I then discovered that
I could tell myself how long to cook something, put it in the oven, and then
I would have an impulse to look at my watch at the desired time.  This 
impulse occurred no matter how involved I was in any other project, and was
sufficiently reliable so that I did not need to replace my kitchen timer for
years.  The impulse when I was most fully absorbed in something else was
typically no more than a minute off what I had "set."  

What's controlling the process and where's the oscillator?  Beats me!

How far can this "sublimation" be carried out?  The "timer" worked regardless
of how occupied my conscious mind was, and in fact seemed to work slightly
better when I forgot about it.

David Thornley