Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!willett!ForthNet
From: ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: ANS FORTH TECHNICAL COMMITTEE
Message-ID: <749.UUL1.3#5129@willett.UUCP>
Date: 7 Apr 90 13:03:29 GMT
Organization: Latest link in the ForthNet chain.  (Pgh, PA)
Lines: 67

Category 10,  Topic 2
Message 222       Thu Apr 05, 1990
R.BERKEY [Robert]            at 23:30 PDT
 
 
 Re: Perspective on the state of BASIS

The Forth Vendors Group has been the leading source of input to the X3.J14
committee, having outlined the charter and officered the committee.  A concern
of the vendors is in being able to say that their systems are ANS standard.

Inconsistently, the concern of programmers in being able to say that their
programs are ANS standard is belittled by elements of the committee.  Consider
an idea presented recently in Forth Dimensions, "For example, machines that
use sign-magnitude numbers are rare and probably don't deserve much thought." 
In my opinion that's double-talk.  A program must concern itself with any and
all standard systems, otherwise it isn't standard.  Note the suggestion at the
end of the quote to "not think", as in, "don't think about portability".  A
Forth-83 system implemented on a sign-magnitude machine will run Forth-83
programs.  If the sign-magnitude implementor implements what he/she feels like
implementing, and can call it ANS Standard, then of course programs will have
difficulty in being "portable".

Alas, if sign-magnitude and also one's complement machines are so rare, why is
the standard cutting some of the more useful elements in what we know as Forth
on their behalf?

By comparison, the X3.J11 "C" committee just took it for granted that
implementations would be undergoing substantive changes in order to support
the portability of programs.

The implementor viewpoint and political voice has taken from the Program, and
given to the System.  And Forth-83 is no picnic for programs.

Losses to the standard program include:

    @ and !    50% capability remaining.

    + and -    unsigned and wraparound math gone.

    /     Mathematically neither a function nor an operator.

    MOD   A not-so-funny joke.

    KEY   This one just changed as of BASIS11.  32 out of 128
          characters gone.  Note that programs cannot get a
          carriage return using KEY .  (Some UNIX's usurp ^S and
          ^Q.  With the Forth-83 spec, implementor's provide
          programs some way for these characters to get from the
          keyboard to the program, such as reserving function keys,
          or specifying combinations of keystrokes that are
          interpreted as one input to KEY .)

    WORDLIST (nee VOCABULARY )   0% remaining.

    Mass storage   0% remaining.

    Bit-mask literals   50%.

    Addresses   Cannot be compared.  Cannot be entered into DO loops.

    The basis for the floating-point wordset has been criticized in a
          JFAR article as biased towards vendor interests.

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