Path: utzoo!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!att!cbnews!military From: msmiller@glass.Eng.Sun.COM (Mark Miller) Newsgroups: sci.military Subject: Re: M4 Tank Info Message-ID: <15582@cbnews.ATT.COM> Date: 14 Apr 90 04:11:27 GMT Sender: military@cbnews.ATT.COM Lines: 69 Approved: military@att.att.com From: msmiller@glass.Eng.Sun.COM (Mark Miller) |>From: jaa@cs.su.oz.au (James Ashton) |>I have heard that the Sherman was designed with considerable British |>assistance or at least consultation, and that this fact was not |>revealed during the war for propaganda reasons. Admittedly I recall |>that I heard this from a British source and so it could be a biased |>report. Can anyone give a more detailed or definitive discussion on |>this subject? That's a new one on me. The British used a lot of US equipment, certainly, but I don't recall ever reading how they influenced the development of the M4. British tanks of the day were generally either the heavy infantry tank types (like the Matilda and Valentine) or "cruiser" class tanks such as the Crusader and later Cromwell. These designs rarely had a crew more than 4 and usually had a Christie style suspension. The US designs generally had crews of 5 and non-Christie suspension. The use of aircraft engines was also fairly common in the early US designs - I'm fairly sure the M3 Stuart and M3 Lee/Grant used these (but, again, I don't have my reference material in front of me). If you look at the M3 Lee and the M4 Sherman side by side, you can't help but see the similarities and the lineage. The British may have indeed advised the US on certain points, but I don't think they player a very heavy role in the development of the M4. In fact, I've always felt that the US designs more closely matched the early German designs (crew placement, suspension, general layout) while the British stuff seems to go along with much of what the Soviet Union produced. Anyway, I'd also be interested in hearing info to the contrary. [mod.note: The British were involved from the early stages of the M-3. A commission under Michael Dewar was sent to the US in July, 1940, to investigate the purchase of tanks here. At first, Britain wanted US firms to produce tanks of their design, but this request was refused; instead, they were told to purchase M-3 mediums as is. The British didn't like its layout, so a compromise was reached; the M-3 Lee was produced as designed for the US, and the M-3 Grant was produced for the British; it had a larger turret (with room for a radio) and deleted the cupola machinegun. Note that the names "Grant" and "Lee" were given by the British; they thought their version was the winner. In his _M4 Sherman_, George Forty states, "It is interesting to speculate on just how much influence the British had on the design of the T6 [the predecessor to the M4]." He states that a US ordnance expert was invited to view the Ram mockup in Canada, and two months later, the British commission was shown a new American design which closely resembled the Ram. "It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that the early appearance of the improved Americfan tank is directly attributable to the efforts made by the British to demonstrate their ideas through the medium of the Ram tank." Forty also mentions an anecdote from a US correspondent during WWII. Apparently, a common joke among captured German tankers was "Von off our tanks iss better than ten off yours... but you always haff eleven." I recommend the book for further reading. _M4 Sherman_ by George Forty, (Blanford Press, London, 1987) ISBN 0 7137 1678 9 - Bill ] -MSM ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mark S. Miller UUCP: msmiller@Sun.COM "In a nation ruled by swine, ################## GEnie: MSMILLER all pigs are upward mobile." ###################################################### - Hunter S. Thompson