Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!clyde.concordia.ca!uunet!willett!ForthNet
From: ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: FIG Suspends Chapter Coordinator!
Message-ID: <917.UUL1.3#5129@willett.UUCP>
Date: 7 May 90 00:09:01 GMT
Organization: Latest link in the ForthNet chain.  (Pgh, PA)
Lines: 61


 Date: 05-04-90 (09:51)              Number: 3211 (Echo)
   To: JACK WOEHR                    Refer#: NONE
 From: JONAH THOMAS                    Read: NO
 Subj: CHAP. COORD. SUSPENDED!       Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE

 >Mr. Woehr responded to his suspension by calling for the
 >resignation of the Board of Directors of the Forth Interest
 >Group. "They're a great bunch and great programmers, but they have
 >proved their inability to run a modern professional association,"

   It's clear there's a problem here.  And it's clear you don't have a
 solution.
   Self-selected groups can do a great job.  If they stop doing a great
 job, it isn't obvious what to do about it.  They have the chance to work 
 together smoothly, and if they lose their direction, well, does it
 really help to bring in people who CAN'T work smoothly with them?  When
 it happens, it's a problem.
   People don't generally like controversy.  When it comes up, most
 people go away and the ones who're attracted tend to be the ones who
 like a good fight more than they want results.  Your challenge to FIG is 
 a clear sign that something is wrong, but it isn't part of the solution, 
 it's just a warning to others to stay away.  It makes it harder to find
 a solution, if there's anybody looking.
   There may BE no solution.  Maybe we should let FIG fold and join
 FORTH-SIG or whatever.  But it's clear that if you can't work with them, 
 it won't help to work against them.  By the time you win, there won't be 
 anything left worth having.
   Do we need an organization with a glossy-cover magazine?  Less than 5
 years ago.  You could post your articles on Genie, and I could download
 the ones I wanted cheaper than buying FD.  But it doesn't work to get
 rid of FD and have a magazineless FIG, either.
   A lot of the problem comes because we don't quite know what we're
 doing.  When everybody thinks you're doing something that works, it's
 easier to approve.  When it looks like it isn't working, their doubts
 reinforce yours.  If we find a really workable direction, we can build
 an organization to further it.  the organization can be part of FIG or
 not, whichever is more convenient.

   I see a central problem with Forth, that it doesn't come naturally to
 americans who watch TV.  I tried teaching Forth to some bright
 high-school students.  They'd picked up Basic in about a month (except
 for the file-handling, which they never got).  After 6 weeks of Forth,
 the brightest of them went back to Basic.  The system never crashed with 
 Basic, they never did strange things they couldn't at all understand,
 they could keep all the instructions in their heads at once.  They wrote 
 long involved buggy programs with no comments, and tracked down the
 problems by running their programs over and over and looking for the
 obvious solutions to obvious problems.  (The subtle problems mostly
 didn't even get found.)  They were happy with it.
   They hated using a stack.  They hated having to declare variables. 
 They hated having the IF THEN ELSE be backward.  They never found out
 how wonderful it was.
   Maybe if we taught forth in grade school....
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