Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!unisoft!fai!sequent!cseaman From: cseaman@sequent.UUCP (Chris "I'm Outta Here, Man!" Seaman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.tech Subject: Re: Game vs Multitasking Message-ID: <35933@sequent.UUCP> Date: 31 May 90 00:16:55 GMT References: <1990May29.053417.4690@cbnewsm.att.com> <17866@ultima.cs.uts.oz> Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Beaverton, OR Lines: 177 vilkas@ultima.cs.uts.oz (Iron Wolf) writes: < nsw@cbnewsm.att.com (Neil Weinstock) writes: < < >>Mikko "Assembler rules OK!" Tsokkinen writes: < >>1. Should game be HD-installable? < >> - IMHO I think this is quite useless because many HD drivers eat < >> chip-memory... < < >I hardly *ever* use my floppy for other than installing software, and perfer < >to keep it that way. < < Good for you but when you are blasting a games designer with these statements < you have to examine the reality of the matter and his point of view as well. < Now...if you have a DMA SCSI HD you need a buffer in CHIP ram...am I corect? < (I am not real sure but I assume this is true). My 2091 (as well as the A2090a that preceded it) uses no CHIP RAM at all. My 2500 has the same amount of CHIP RAM available as my single floppy A1000, when using the same startup-sequence. < Also....a VERY large number of the type of people who BUY these games, the < MARKET, don't have a HD, and quite a few only have 512k. Now unless we want < to make the cost of development increase by having the programmers write < variations for hard drives, extra memory and so on, we should be content that < in general, the games that are written actually WORK on most Amiga < configurations. Yes, there are a large number of 512K, single (or dual) floppy A500 owners out there purchasing games. There are also many 1MB+, small- to medium-sized hard disk A500/A2000 owners who buy games. There is no reason that a developer cannot accomodate both users. The development costs required to provide the ability to run from a hard disk or support extra memory are minimal. It also should not impact the operation on your single floppy A500 in any way. < >>4. Should game be exitable? < >> - IMHO exitable games are harder to protect and you can't destroy < >> anything in memory and you will end up again without enough memory:-( < < >Look at it this way. Nowadays, the degree of system friendliness of a game < >is my top consideration when deciding on a purchase. It didn't use to be < >that way. I bought several games of the boot-from-the-floppy-then-reboot < >variety, then found out that I never play any of them because I can't stand < >the routine. < < I wonder if you realise how much piracy costs the game industry? < If the programmers start saying: "Sure, run a cli - make an image of the memory" < we will find very few commercial quality programs coming out on the market as < they will be easily available in pirated form. While this may work on an Atari ST, I have never seen a successful memory dump of an Amiga (with multitasking enabled) that could be used to boot a system. Besides, there are non-disk methods of copy protection that work quite well. They may be slightly inconvenient, but they work. < Every effort should be made to insure the integrity of the software and the < security of it. I agree completely, however... < Now...if we want games to multitask...we dont want security...we dont want < fast flashy games....we want lots of system overhead when writing simple < routines....we want somewhat inconsistent reaction times. Well < Well if this is what you want...take a look; you already have it PD & < shareware is what is viable for such demands. The quality is generally poorer < the cost is much less. You want multitasking, well you can get it. I'll stick < with quality and performance. And the only way to get consistent performance < is to shut off any interference. There are certain type of games that do not perform well while mutitasking, but there are also types that do perform quite well. For the average 'shoot-em-up', or games that play in 'real-time', this can be a problem. These games can, and should, give the user THE OPTION to run with or without multitasking. Let me decide what I can live with. There are also schools of thought that have been mentioned before, such as disabling mutitasking during game play, but re-enabling it while the game is paused. I realize this would not be too convenient on a 512K machine, but then, you are not required to use that option on a 512K machine. < You may find yourself a little different to the average consumer who freaks < if his arcade qonversion doesn't have all the screens of the original...isn't < as fast, or is too jerky, hasnt got the same quality graphics. I doubt that the 'average' Amiga consumer is going to 'freak' if the Amiga conversion of his/her favorite arcade game doesn't have 'all the screens of the original'. Most Amiga owners I know prefer original work over arcade translations. < To accomodate < the people who buy their favourite conversions and variations and spinoffs < the games programmers have to optimise their code and optimise the system < performance. All this involves shortcuts and the like. The programmers have < to cram their code and graphics in (just because some people have 3M doesnt < mean the people with 512k will be happy...we have to cater to the market) < they have to make their code FAST on a stock-standard amiga. Just because < a 68030 wouldn't blink about running the same thing using the OS, the < mjority of us only have 16bits and 7MHz..we are the main market. As I mentioned above, the fact that there are 512K A500 owners out there should not prevent me from having THE OPTION to install a game on my 105MB Quantum hard disk, or prevent me from having THE OPTION of running the game in multitasking mode on my 5MB A2500. < >>And I would like also to know how many of you people really play games while < >>doing something else? If you do, do you really like those every now and then < >>updating games with poor graphics (thanks to memory shortage). < < >If I want to tolerate slower operation < >in order to be able to download while playing (for example), that's my < >business. As for memory, your argument falls apart once you consider the < >existence of machines with more than 512K chip RAM. You're going to tell me < >that on an A3000 with 2 Meg of chip and 16 Meg of fast RAM, your game is < >going to encounter *any* memory restrictions at all? < < You are right , but if the majority of the market doesn't tolerate the slower < games...that's the programmer's living! How many market surveys have you conducted to determine what the majority of the market will or will not tolerate? The majority of Amiga owners I know prefer multitasking, feature-rich games that tailor themselves to an individual system, rather than the lowest common denominator. < You're argument falls apart where you point out that there are machines such < as the A3000 and 1Mb & 2Mb Amiga's. The majority of Amiga's out there are < A500's with 512k or at most 1Mb, one..maybe two drives. Adn as such, there < is what the programmer's MUST cater for to achieve maxmimum market penetration < and sales. The games MUST have protection to discourage piracy and the games < must follow the dictates of what the majority of consumers want. Not true. To achieve maximum market penetration, a developer must produce a product that can ADAPT to differing configurations. Do you have any idea how people would react in the MS-DOS world if developers only supported CGA or 512K system RAM? These are still far and away the lowest common denominator, but the VAST majority of software now supports VGA and several memory expansion standards. < As the market changes, so will the games..already many games require 1Mb < and even the European games (which are the majority of good games) are beginning < to notice that second disk drive stuck onto the machines instead of saying < "please insert disk 2". < < So the message gets through and the direction changes. Here you are contradicting yourself. If the majority of the market base is still 512K A500's, then there is no message to be heard. The fact that many games DO support hard disks, second drives, and extra memory (and have done so for more that two years), shows that smart developers write code that can exist in many environments. < The only way that your gripes will be picked up by the programmer's is if < the majority of the market started feeling the same way. Take a moment to count the number of articles posted here that voiced the same sentiments as Neil's article. If this doesn't speak for itself, I don't know what could. < >Just one paying customer's opinion... < < > - Neil < < Not meaning to be personal but just trying to point out a view from a < different angle....IMHO what you say has merit..but I am trying to stress < arguments to the contrary...and what it all really comes down to is the cold < hard green stuff - MONEY! < < Iron Wolf No flames intended here, either. I'm just trying to point out that there doesn't need to be an argument at all. Amiga games should be designed to work exactly as you described. These same games, however, should also be able to work exactly as I (and Neil, and _many_ others on the net) have described. -- Chris (Insert phrase here) Seaman | /o -- -- -- cseaman@sequent ||| -- -- - I'm Outta Here, Man! ...!uunet!sequent!cseaman |vvvv/ -- -- - The Home of the Killer Smiley |___/ -- -- --