Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!ucsd!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: ta00est@unccvax.UUCP (elizabeth s tallant) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Mary Message-ID: Date: 5 Jun 90 03:20:34 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Univ. of NC at Charlotte, Charlotte, NC Lines: 67 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu This is in response to your questions about Mary. First, the Bible clearly states that Joseph was Mary's husband. The angel told Joseph that he was not to TOUCH (which obviously means have ---) until after the child (Jesus) was born. From a logical standpoint, the angel would not tell Joseph when he could touch Mary unless the angel knew that he was going to do such. Further, the Bible COMMANDS that husaband and wife give due physical attention to each other. Since the Bible gives this command and since Mary was Joseph's wife, then Mary would have been a bad wife if she would not have ---. Secondly, there is a passage of scripture which tells us that Jesus had at least one sister. In the passage, Jesus is very busy when someone comes in to tell him that his mother and sister want to see Him. Then, Jesus says "Who is my mother and who is my sister?" Then, he goes on to explain that His relatives are spiritual relatives. With all due respect to Jesus' point, this passage makes clear that Jesus had a biological sister. He used His mother and His biological sister to make the point that all Christians are spiritually related, thereby crossing boundaries over biology. Further, the Gospels indicate that Jesus had brothers, and that one of these brothers was the disciple John. (There were two (or three?) disciples named John. His brother was not the disciple who wrote the Gospel of John.) If anyone is truly interest in this or the above passage, I will tell you its exact location in the Bible. In response to you questions about hail Marys and asking dead saints to pray for you, I have one main response: Read your Bible. I have found absolutely no incidence in the Scripture in which anyone, disciple, prophet, saint, or otherwise, prayed to anyone other than the Father, the Son, or the Spirit. We are to follow the examples of the prophets, disciples, the apostle Paul, and the Son. (Flame on: Forget about all these other so-called saints who came after the Bible was written. Jesus told us to pray to His Father is Heaven through Christ and that if we need any additional help in convincing the Father, then Jesus will plead our case in front of Him. Jesus did not say to ask such a so-in-so, no matter how rightous that person might be. Flame off.) Further Jesus gave us a model prayer. He said pray according to this manner: "Our Father, who art in Heaven, Holy be they Name. May Thy Kingdom come soon and may They Will be done on Earth as it is done in Heaven. Give us this day our sustinence, and forgive us our tresspasses in the same manner that we forgive those who tresspass against us. Please don't temp us and deliver us from evil. For They Kingdom, power and Glory will last forever. Amen" We are to pray according to this manner. This is our outline for prayer. Notice that the Father is the only one that Jesus tells us to address. Nowhere in this model is there room for St. Francis or Mary. The only intercessory that we need is Jesus. If we use anyone else, then we insult Him. When Jesus died, the curtain broke. This curtain covered the place in which the high priest had an annual fellowship with God in order to ntercede for others. By breaking the curtain, God showed us that we Micheal, and not even Mary. Well, I hope this answers some of your questions. If you wish to have further discussion or require scriptural backing, send e-mail. Mindful of Jesus lesson, Your sister is Christ, Elizabeth ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu