Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: With all due respect for Catholics... Message-ID: Date: 5 Jun 90 04:23:00 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston -- Department of Mathematics Lines: 83 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu I'm going to try to respond to this without turning it into a flame, which, given the Lutheran literature on the subject, would be all too easy. For reference, see Melancthon's 'Apology to the Augsburg confession', Article 23, 'The Marriage of Priests'. Melancthon wrote in response to the following in the Roman Confutation to the Augsburg confession: "...They [the Lutheran princes] call sacerdotal celibacy an abuse when the direct contrary, the violation of celibacy and unlawful transition to marriage, deserves to be called the worst abuse in priests...The princes ought not tolerate it, to the perpetual shame and disgrace of the Roman Empire, but should rather conform with the universal church..." The principle point of Melancthon's response was that vows of celibacy were honored mostly in the breach. He further cites Paul: "But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband." (1 Cor 7:2) and "But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." (1 Cor 7:9). He cited the council of Nicea, which (as mentioned in a previous article) refused to make a requirement of priestly celibacy. IMHO this gives an interesting insight into how error has crept into the church. This idea gets started, and the church rightly resists it, but does not quite succeed in stamping it out. Several hundred years later the error becomes enshrined in church doctrine or practice. I believe just about everything that Protestants find objectionable in Roman Catholicism had its origins in this manner. Some of his more pointed comments: "But they are not serious about celibacy. They know good and well how few practice chastity, but they use religion as a pretext to maintain their authority, which they think chastity enhances." "...although our opponents do not defend this regulation for religious reasons, since they see that it is not being observed, still they cloak it with pious-sounding phrases to give it a religious front. They claim that they require celibacy because it is pure, as though marriage was impure and sinful or that celibacy merited justification more than marriage." He goes on to show that there is no foundation in scripture for this view. We all should be on guard against pious-sounding phrases that have no basis in scripture, on any number of subjects. It is interesting that Melancthon quotes 1 Tim 2:15, which is generally regarded as one of the more doctrinally difficult passages in the Bible: "But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety." He does this to show that marriage is just as blessed, if not more, as is celibacy. Melancthon would surely never suggest that childbearing is a good work which merits salvation, but he quotes this anyway. One possible interpretation that avoids what appears to be a dilemna for Lutherans is "Women will be kept safe through childbearing", which makes just a little more sense. "The canon commands that priests [who marry] should be suspended; our canonists suspend them all right-- not from office but from trees! They cruelly kill men because they are married." I suppose that's a historical flame; I don't pretend Catholic practice is the same today. But people should be aware of their history. I see one reason, which is supported in the Scripture, for a person to choose celibacy and remain unmarried. That is that first of all, God has given them the ability to do so. Secondly, if that person chooses celibacy to permit him or her to do better work in God's kingdom. (1 Cor 7:32-35). But Paul clearly instructs us not to judge each other in this matter. Luther, incidentally, was inclined not to marry. But when he met Katherine von Bora (not quite sure on the last name) he changed his mind--perhaps so that other pastors would not have doubts remaining in their consciences regarding marriage. According to history, she had her sights set on him and sought him out! By all acounts the marriage was a very happy one. David H. Wagner A confessional Lutheran My opinions and beliefs are not likely to conincide with any held by The University of Houston.