Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!aplcen!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Mary Message-ID: Date: 5 Jun 90 02:58:43 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 71 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu This is in reply to the questions asked in Cindy Smith's article on Mary, some questions of which were directed at Protestants and some at all Christians. Please note here I speak only for myself, not for my denomination or for Protestantism in general. [question of praying Rosary in groups or alone] Since I don't pray the Rosary, I can't answer for the case of the Rosary specifically, but I've found both individual and group prayer helpful in different ways. Individual prayer is beneficial to me in working out the very personal and private things in my life, and making intercession for others. Group prayer I have also found helpful, particularly for the Church and the world as a whole. I agree that it is very important to meditate on the Passion of Christ, recently for this purpose I memorized the gospel of St. John and found it to be a very moving experience. I may be showing my ignorance, but I believe that the Our Father is included in the Rosary [no?] and I find this prayer very meaningful. I have spent time exploring the sevenfold theme of this prayer and the places it is reflected elsewhere in the Bible. Question: can a certain prayer [or any other prayer] cause the salvation of others? I think prayer can be important in the following way: it may make you more open to that person's need and ready to share the Good News of Christ with him when he is ready. Also, God may in response to your prayer give that person an opportunity to hear the gospel. I think the final choice is up to the individual, however. Question: Do most Protestants believe that Mary had children? I suspect many don't know. The Bible does record that Jesus had brothers. Whether these were sons only of Joseph by a previous marriage or not, who can say? It is no great theological barrier to me if she did have other children. The Bible says "Joseph knew her not until she had brought forth her first-born son." If Jewish custom is our guide, we can expect that he did know her (have sexual intercourse) thereafter, whether or not children were produced. Does the idea that Mary must always have been a virgin have its root in the Medieval idea that all sex was sinful? Cindy mentions that if Protestants as well as Catholics prayed the rosary, things would happen quickly. While I see the virtue in meditating on the life of Christ (and perhaps even on the life of Mary) it seems to me that the most efficacious prayer for the conversion of Eastern Europe, for example, would be "Dear God, We pray that those in Eastern Europe who don't know You will come to know you and be saved." (Nothing magical about the words. But if you want something from God, why not just ask him for it instead of repeating the Hail Mary n times?" Jesus said "If ye ask anything in my name, I will do it." It's been interesting to hear why Catholics and some Protestants see the Virgin as a mediator. If I indeed believed Mary and the saints were in Heaven right now [which I don't] it would seem like an effective way, and no more questionable than asking living friends to pray for you. Let me point out that even Jesus said "I do not say that I will pray the Father for you, for the Father himself loveth you." The first Protestant reflex is to substitute Jesus himself as the mediator in place of MAry. But this leads, as does the Catholic notion, to the idea of a God the Father who is unapproachable, and must be appeased and/or cajoled into loving us. Viewed within the framework of the Immaculate Conception, then Christ really wasn't like us, and Mary becomes a necessary mediator between man and God. Personally, I hold no such view, Christ was like us, and if I need a mediator, he's all the mediator I need. He doesn't have to do any work to cajole God the Father--God already loves us. The work of the mediator is to speak to *our* hearts and bring us back into oneness with God. Steve