Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: cms@dragon.uucp Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Martin Luther (Augsburg Confession, Luther's Catechisms) Message-ID: Date: 7 Jun 90 04:52:59 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Computer Projects Unlimited Lines: 110 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Another quotation from a famous theologian: It is precisely the same devil who now assails us through the fanatics by blaspheming the holy and venerable sacrament of our Lord Jesus Christ, out of which they would like to make mere bread and wine as a symbol or memorial sign of Christians, in whatever way their dream or fancy dictates. They will not grant that the Lord's body and blood are present, even though the plain, clear words stand right there: "Eat, this is my body." Yet those words still stand firm and invulnerable against them.... Let us take up the saying of Christ, which Matthew and Mark record: "He took bread, and gave thanks, and broke it, and gave it to his disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is my body which is given for you."....Now here stands the text, stating clearly and lucidly that Christ gives his body to eat when he distributes the bread. On this we take our stand, and we also believe and teach that in the Supper we eat and take to ourselves Christ's body truly and physically. But how this takes place or how he is in the bread, we do not know and are not meant to know. God's Word we should believe without setting bounds or measure to it. The bread we see with our eyes, but we hear with our ears that Christ's body is present.... But listen, I ask you, how they remove our interpretation from this saying of Christ and bring in their own. They say, "The word 'is' must mean the same as the word 'represents', as Zwingli writes; and the expression 'my body' must mean the same as the expression 'sign of my body'", as OEcolampadius writes. So Christ's Word and meaning according to Zwingli's text would read, "Take, eat; this represents my body', or according to OEcolampadius' text, 'Take and eat; this is a sign of my body.'....Then at once they boast that we have no passage from scripture which says that Christ's body is in the Supper.... --- Martin Luther Martin Luther wrote these words in response to the Eucharistic controversy and the Marburg Colloquy. Luther held to his belief that "This is my body" implied a real presence where Zwingli and OEcolampadius championed a true, spiritual presence. After expressing agreement in other areas, they ultimately departed unable to forge an agreement on this issue. In a brief note, Luther says this about the conference: "Grace and peace in Christ. You will know, my dear Gerbel, how far we attained harmony at Marburg, partly by the verbal report of your representatives, partly by the Articles they are taking with them. We defended ourselves strongly and they conceded much, but as they were firm in this one Article of the sacrament of the altar we dismissed them in peace, fearing that further argument would draw blood. We ought to have charity and peace even with our foes, and so we plainly told them, that unless they grow wiser on this point they may indeed have our charity, but cannot by us be considered as brothers and members of Christ. You will judge how much fruit has come of this conference; it seems to me that no small scandal has been removed, since there will be no further occasion for disputation, which is more than we had hoped for. Would that the little difference still remaining might be taken away by Christ. Yours, Martin Luther" Smith, Life and Letters, 245 et seq. The following is a quote from the Augsburg Confession as found in Documents of Modern History: Martin Luther (E. G. Rupp and Benjamin Drewery). 9 BAPTISM. Baptism is necessary to salvation; through it is offered the grace of God; children should be baptized, so that, offered through baptism to God, they may be received into his grace. Our Churches condemn the Anabaptists, who reject the baptism of children and affirm that they can be saved without baptism. 10 THE LORD'S SUPPER. The body and blood of Christ are really present [vere adsint] and are distributed in the Lord's Supper to those who eat; our Churches reject those who teach otherwise. 11 CONFESSION. [The practice of private absolution should be retained.] 12 PENITENCE. [Absolution for post-baptismal sin must be always available in the church for the penitent. Penitence embraces contrition and faith; and good works, the fruit of penitence, must follow.] Our Churches condemn the Anabaptists, who deny that the once-justified can ever lose the Holy Spirit, and insist that to some there comes so great perfection in this life that they cannot sin again. [Likewise the Novatians who refused to absolve the penitent, and others who bid us earn grace through satisfaction achieved by ourselves.] 13 THE USE OF SACRAMENTS. [Sacraments are 'signs and testimonies of the Will of God towards us'. The (Roman) ex opere operato is condemned, as ignoring faith.] 14 THE CHURCH'S ORDERS. None may publicly teach in church or administer the Sacraments who is not duly called [rite vocatus]. 21 THE CULT OF THE SAINTS. [The saints are our examples, but not to be invoked or to be thought to help us in the way only Christ can -- as mediator, reconciler, priest, intercessor.] END OF QUOTE I am posting the above in direct response to several mail messages asserting that Martin Luther never said such things as I have just quoted. Martin Luther was quite devoted to the Blessed Virgin Mary and objected only to the invocation of the saints, as I understand the above. Actually, Catholics would agree with Luther that Christ is our only mediator, etc.; the saints are invoked only as those Christians who live inside Christ and are capable of helping us only through the power of Christ. Thus, we invoke Christ whenever we coincidentally use the name of one His disciples/saints. It sounds like a nitpicking detail, but, then, wars have been fought over less. Sincerely, Cindy Smith SPAWN OF A JEWISH CARPENTER cms@dragon emory!dragon!cms