Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: cms@dragon.uucp Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: a Christian motif that doesn't make sense to me Message-ID: Date: 9 Jun 90 02:29:13 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Computer Projects Unlimited Lines: 73 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu [This continues a discussion on the necessity of Jesus' dying for our sins, originally started by Quowong Peter Liu. A response from Jeff Lindborg suggested that it would be unfair for God to condemn someone because they were raisd nonchristian or are not able/willing to believe in God as described by Christianity. --clh] Actually, in the Catholic view, if you have been raised a non-Christian, but you are a good person, then you are saved by what we call baptism by desire. That is to say, you don't know Christ, but your heart and mind yearn for God; therefore, you are saved. From my conversations with Baptists, I gather at least the Baptists reject this view. I'm not privy to the opinions of other Protestant groups. > Or coming to the realization that God is, indeed, a fantasy. Christianity > is perpetuated by fear and I think this post only strengthens that idea. > Fear of hell/punishment/death/satan(tm)/.... If there were no provision > for escaping "death" (through heaven) then Christianity would have died > long ago. [more from Jeff Lindborg --clh] The Jonathan Edwards hellfire-and-brimstone types surface from time to time. The idea is that we are saved by the love of God. God loved us so much that he chose to embrace human suffering; he does not use human suffering as a tool to punish, necessarily; for more on this theme, read the Book of Job. In the end, Job repents in sack cloth and ashes *not* of his own sins but rather his attitude towards human suffering. Previously, he had thought all human suffering was the result of sin; he now understood that God's ways are not our ways, his thoughts not our thoughts, yet God is the one who always with us. God embraced human suffering in Jesus Christ. In this sense, the four Gospels of Jesus Christ are the sequel to the Book of Job, more than any other book in the Bible. The forgiveness of our sins comes from the action of God loving us in a tangible way. Remember, in the Old Testament, the act of "remembering" by God is the causation of an event. God speaks and it is so. The Lord "remembered" Sarah and she conceived in her womb. God speaks, "let there be light," and it is so. God loves humanity, in joy and in sorrow; John the Baptist came neither eating nor drinking and people said he was possessed; the Son of Man came eating and drinking, and people say, behold, a glutton and drunkard; yet wisdom is justified by all her children. The act of God loving humanity is expressed in the joyful birth, joyful life, teachings, suffering, Passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus lived life to the fullest and this is way God loved humanity to the fullest. To say, Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, is God's way of telling us, we are forgiven because God understands us; the act of God understanding us, as one day we shall fully understand God, is the act of God forgiving us. God understands and forgiveness is so. I'm not a theologian; others may be able to put it better. I love Jesus because Jesus loves me. Let me put it this way. I'm lifting this from someone else. When we see Jesus dying on the Cross, who is Jesus looking at? My priest, in response to this question (when he said later he should have known better), said that Jesus is looking at God saying "humanity is okay." Wrong! Jesus Christ dying on the Cross is rather looking at humanity and saying, "God's okay." Sincerely, _///_ // SPAWN OF A JEWISH _///_ // _///_ // <`)= _<< CARPENTER _///_ //<`)= _<< <`)= _<< _///_ // \\\ \\ \\ _\\\_ <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ <`)= _<< >IXOYE=('> \\\ \\ \\\ \\_///_ // // /// _///_ // _///_ // emory!dragon!cms <`)= _<< _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< \\\ \\<`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\\ \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia p.s. For those queries regarding my fish, take a closer look. The fish in the middle, labeled IXOYE, is swimming "against the flow." Thank you for your attention. Cindy Smith