Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!snorkelwacker!bloom-beacon!flatirons.central.sun.COM!murray From: murray@flatirons.central.sun.COM (Murray Stein [Rocky Mtn. Regional MTS]) Newsgroups: comp.windows.x Subject: Re: Motif -> Open Look look & feel Message-ID: <9006291804.AA06484@flatirons.Central.Sun.COM> Date: 29 Jun 90 18:04:30 GMT Sender: daemon@athena.mit.edu (Mr Background) Organization: The Internet Lines: 130 +----- Begin Included Message ----- +From: news@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu (Bill Willis) +Subject: Re: Motif -> Open Look look & feel +Message-Id: <1990Jun29.033504.5003@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu> +To: xpert@expo.lcs.mit.edu +Status: R +I didn't mean to start something, but here goes... +In article <138082@sun.Eng.Sun.COM>, patl@bodacia.Eng.Sun.COM (Pat +Lashley) writes: +> +> 1) Count the number of applications actually shipping. OpenLook wins +> by almost 2:1. Count the number of SunView applications total. +> Easily the second most widely used look and feel in the world. +> Think about how easy most of them are to port using xview.... +I was counting X applications only and counting those that I know of +under development. I do not believe that the 2:1 number holds. For +another measure, and remember we need to pick what will be delivering +next fall instead of now, count the number of time Motif is mentioned in +your favorite, non-biased trade journal and count the time OpenLook is +mentioned. This may seem trivial, but I think it represents something. Nope. 2:1 is right. And we can prove it. I do agree that the real measure will be the applications delivered in the coming 6-12 months. BTW, OPEN LOOK has something like 300 applications in development. As for the number of mentions for Motif vs OPEN LOOK, I really doubt that this is a good measure, given the independent aliases and support mechanisms. +> +> 2) The XView OpenLook toolkit source is freely-redistributable; and +> included with the X11R4 source; you have to pay for Motif. Not +> just to develop using it, but a per-customer right-to use. I'm +> not about to spend the bucks for a Motif developer's licence for +> my Amiga at home when I will be able to get the OpenLook toolkits +> with X11. +I pay nothing for Motif (yes it is imbedded in the workstation price) +unless I want +source. The libraries come with most of the workstations that I order and it is +supported by the vendor. I do not HAVE to get R4 or build it or mess +with anything. Now, +I know that Motif isn't very mature yet. In fact, it leaks like a sieve +in many cases, +but, it will improve, and we have applications running under Motif +running on 7 +platforms now and we only had to build it ourselves for the Sun systems. What are you smoking ? The fact is, one way or another, you do pay for it. OSF/Motif requires royalties. So maybe you didn't pay it directly - but you can be sure your vendor did, and he is going to pass the cost on to you somehow. +> +> 3) Two OpenLook toolkits are provided with the SysV R.4 distribution and +> in the Sun OpenWindows package. (OpenWindows is available to Sun +> users for a nominal media charge. The right-to-use is included in +> your SunOS licence.) +Again, Motif toolkits are provided with nearly everything we are +interested in. If it +isn't provided now, it soon will be, or it is available for the asking. +DG, Digital, +HP/Apollo, IBM, Solbourne, SCO, etc.... The only significant player +missing is Sun. With all due respect to all the competent and committed vendors out there, I honestly don't believe that you can stack alot of names together and say 'there's the marketplace'. How much of the workstation market is DG anyway ? Or IBM for that matter ? +> +> 4) OpenLook defines a 2D look which works much better on monochrome and +> low-res displays. (Have you ever seen Motif on monochrome? Fuzzy +> looking isn't it...) +We have defined monochrome resources which yield a perfectly acceptable +appearance +for Motif.... +> +> 5) OpenLook has a smoother, more-consistant user interface. (Ok, this one +> borders on opinion instead of pure fact. :-) +It doesn't border on opinion, it clearly is an opinion :-) +BTW, many of the statements that I make here are also opinions. But, +they come from a +lot of experience in this market place. I will not argue technical +superiority of +either toolkit. We have used both and found significant problems with +both. But from the +marketplace and recent announcements, the race nearly is over and the +leader is clear. +I hear that UI is close to endorsing Motif as a toolkit. As I understand +it they only +have to see that it works under SysV R.4. It will... +I would not be surprised to see many major customers requiring vendor supplied +Motif libraries in the near future. I think that the the race has hardly begun. I believe that your impression that UI is preparing to commit to Motif is wrong. I believe that DEC and HP have done a fantastic job in marketing Motif. And there is no substitute for creating fear, uncertainty and doubt, when it comes to marketing. But have no doubt, what you are witnessing is marketing, and very little else... Motif defines not just a look & feel, but an API. Frankly, given the fact that we are only just on the threshhold of embracing multi-media technology, isn't it a bit early to trot down a path that confines applications to a given API ? Oh, I guess we could have decided that the IBM PC UI of circa 1981 was the absolute in computing, and then never bothered to do the Macintosh. Or the NeXT for that matter... Things are going to continue to change, as they always do. More and more non-technical users are going to use workstations (I hope), whether they are running OPEN LOOK *or* Motif. And the common look & feel will be what matters to those users, not the API. The OPEN LOOK UI does not define an API, but it does attempt to provide a paradym for the interaction of applications - important when you consider that 'smart' applications need to integrate together if we ever want to see the kind of productivity on workstations under Xwindows that we see on the Mac and NeXT. Both Motif and OPEN LOOK will have their successes, and there is nothing like a little healthy competition... +----- End Included Message ----- [My opinions are most definately my own....]