Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!cos!hqda-ai!media!rmf
From: rmf@media.uucp (Roger Fujii)
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x
Subject: Re: Motif -> Open Look look & feel
Keywords: motif open look openlook
Message-ID: <1990Jul1.061632.20280@media.uucp>
Date: 1 Jul 90 06:16:32 GMT
References: <2986@osc.COM> <1990Jun28.111050.17353@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu> <138082@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> <1990Jun29.033504.5003@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu>
Organization: Media Cybernetics, Inc.
Lines: 85

willis@ecoult.ncsu.edu (Bill Willis) writes:

>> 
>> 2) The XView OpenLook toolkit source is freely-redistributable; and
>>    included with the X11R4 source; you have to pay for Motif.  Not
>>    just to develop using it, but a per-customer right-to use.  I'm
>>    not about to spend the bucks for a Motif developer's licence for
>>    my Amiga at home when I will be able to get the OpenLook toolkits
>>    with X11.

>I pay nothing for Motif (yes it is imbedded in the workstation price)
>unless I want
>source. The libraries come with most of the workstations that I order and it is
>supported by the vendor. I do not HAVE to get R4 or build it or mess
>with anything. Now,
>I know that Motif isn't very mature yet. In fact, it leaks like a sieve
>in many cases,
>but, it will improve, and we have applications running under Motif
>running on 7 
>platforms now and we only had to build it ourselves for the Sun systems.

There are several vendors who DO NOT bundle Motif with their systems.
This poses several non-trivial problems.
Let's say a person writes an application with uil.  He must choose one of these
headaches:
	1) the application will be HUGE (no shared libraries)
	2) distribute the shared libraries with the application and pay
		OSF their distribution fee.
	3) Compatibility risks because the shared library that the user
		provides (either vendor supplied or self generated) doesn't
		work like they should.

Using publically distributable components provide another alternative:
I can provide EVERYTHING that is needed to assure that the product runs.
Granted that this may seem extreme, but there are *lots* of vendor supplied
X servers that don't work quite right (backing store is broken, event
handling is messed up....), and this may be the *only* way of making
your program run correctly.

>> 
>> 3) Two OpenLook toolkits are provided with the SysV R.4 distribution and
>>    in the Sun OpenWindows package.  (OpenWindows is available to Sun
>>    users for a nominal media charge.  The right-to-use is included in
>>    your SunOS licence.)

>Again, Motif toolkits are provided with nearly everything we are
>interested in. If it
>isn't provided now, it soon will be, or it is available for the asking.
>DG, Digital,
>HP/Apollo, IBM, Solbourne, SCO, etc.... The only significant player
>missing is Sun.

Apollos don't come with uil from what I heard.  Real Soon Now doesn't
help if what you need is needed today.  If everyone can get it for
free, then great.  But if one has to PAY for them......

>> 
>> 5) OpenLook has a smoother, more-consistant user interface.  (Ok, this one
>>    borders on opinion instead of pure fact. :-)

>It doesn't border on opinion, it clearly is an opinion :-)

>BTW, many of the statements that I make here are also opinions. But,
>they come from a
>lot of experience in this market place. I will not argue technical
[ stuff deleted ]

Actually, OpenLook should be more consistant because their style guides
are *infinitely* better than the one OSF provides.  Motif is great if you
have a SINGLE monolithic program, but it sucks big time if you have a
multi-window application.  The guides are very vague about when you should do
things and when you don't.  I am not impress with the restrictions
that their widget set provides....

>I would not be surprised to see many major customers requiring vendor supplied
>Motif libraries in the near future.

sad, but true.  It is a shame that a windowing system whose idea is
that the interface should fit the user (and not the other way around)
would be condemned to such a fate.  Personally, I think it would be
great if vendors provided multiple interfaces and the the user pick and
choose, but OSF licensing would make this too cumbersome.
-- 
Roger Fujii - Media Cybernetics		Phone: (301)495-3305
Internet: rmf%media@uunet.uu.net 	UUCP: {uunet,hqda-ai}!media!rmf