Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!uunet!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucsd!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: chrisdu@uunet.uu.net (Chris Durham) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: 'Veneration of the 'Saints'' Message-ID: Date: 2 Jul 90 04:50:24 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. Lines: 125 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu [This is responding to an editorial comment that I made on the issue of praying to Mary and the saints. Although I accepted the defense of Catholic practice that has appeared here, I commented that Protestant misgivings on the subject are not simply due to misunderstanding what Catholics mean by prayer in this context. Prayer to saints has quite commonly degenerated into superstition. This does not necessarily mean that the practice needs to be abandoned. When things are abused, one has to decide whether to correct the abuse or abandon the thing. Reasonable people can disagree over which is appropriate. But it is not simply misunderstanding that causes Protestants to be suspicious of devotion to the saints. -clh] I agree that catholic teaching needs to be more explicit in these areas. I as a Catholic do not remember being taught these distinctions in CCD classes when I was in grammar and high school. However, when there was an instance of Catholic-bashing on a local newsgroup at my college, I saved the following article for just such an occurence as this.... Please note that the following was meant for a college audience and was in response to earlier posts which I do not have. :Many questions have been raised about Roman Catholic teachings and :practices on this bulletin board. (See posts circa November '86.) :What we have attempted to do is to respond to the questions and :misconceptions raised .For anyone who is sincerely seeking the truth, :these responses are provided. We begin with the subject: :PRAYING TO MARY AND THE SAINTS. Others will follow later. : :If someone would like to discuss any of these questions, please feel :free to contact us at ***-**** [ deleted -cbd ] : :Sincerely, : :The Oratory Staff : **************** : **************** [ names withheld ] :P.S. The University Oratory is the Roman Catholic Parish and Newman :Center serving **************** University and the University of *********** : : :SUBJECT: PRAYING TO MARY AND THE SAINTS. : : :Praying to Mary and the Saints: Before explaining or presenting the :Roman Catholic position on praying to Mary and the saints, we need to :agree on the definition of "praying". From the arguments that we :hear from many non-catholics, we assume that there is a great :difference in what we mean in the term "praying". IF prayer :is communion with God, and used only in that context, Roman :Catholicism would agree that I can only pray to God. :BUT, if prayer is used in a wider context, as :talking, as conversation, then it seems reasonable to extend this :conversation or "prayer" to the saints or "friends of God." : : In Roman Catholicism, we speak of the four pillars of Prayer: : 1. Lectio Divina or divine listening. : 2. Meditatio or reflecting on the revelation of God or the divine. : 3. Oratio or prayer which is speaking to God, and : 4. Contemplatio or dwelling in wholeness. : :Oratio, which many wrongly assume is the only way to :describe praying, takes on four dimensions: : : 1.Adoration or Worship of the Divine. : 2.Thanksgiving or Gratitude for blessings received. : 3.Contrition or expressing sorrow for what we have done wrong; : asking for forgiveness for our sinfulness. : 4.Petition or asking God to grant certain favors. : :Roman Catholicism agrees that strictly speaking prayer in this sense :belongs only to God. Only God deserves adoration; :all gifts come from Him, so only He is ultimately to be thanked; if :there were no God, then we would have no need of contrition; and :finally, only God is giver. This principle is commonly misunderstood :by many catholics and non-catholics as well. : : :However, Roman Catholicism does believe in honoring the saints which :includes Mary, the Mother of God. We do not adore :her; but the honor we give her is called :hyperdulia, which means special recognition because of her :unique role in the plan of salvation. We are fully aware that Mary :and the saints are creatures of God, human beings. The Virgin Mary, :as mother of Jesus and as archetype of the church, has been :emphasized from the earliest times in the church. Before the 4th :century, St. Irenaeus spoke of her powerful intercession. At the :Council of Ephesus (431 A.D.) the title THEOTOKOS (Birthgiver :to God, or Mother of God) was fixed for all times as her chief :attribute. And from this stemmed the belief in her powerful ::intercession with her Divine Son to aid the faithful, both in this :life and in the life after death. As Jesus is now interceding for :you, so Mary is united with him in seeking to help you. George :Maloney, S.J., in his book The Everlasting Now (Ave :Maria Press-Notre Dame, Indiana ,1980), explains this clearly and :beautifully. "As Jesus is now interceding for you, so Mary is united :with him in seeking to help you." And further, "This would mean in :the teaching of the church that the angels and saints can and do :intercede for you when you pray to them. It means that Mary and the :angels and saints are now living with full consciousness, memory and :understanding of our needs, of the needs of all the living on earth :and those who have passed into the future life." : :When Roman Catholics use the expression "pray to Mary or a saint", we mean, :not prayer in the strict sense used above, but rather we speak to them. :Perhaps a better preposition than "to" would be "with" or "for". These last :two prepositions are used in their proper grammatical sense. After all, :prepositions show relationships. We ask a saint to pray to God with us and :to pray to God for us. We believe the saints are our friends who have been :victorious in their lives of faith and that we are one in the Body of :Christ. For those who wish to pray only to God and not in union with Mary :and the saints, the Roman Catholic Church says "that is fine". Many, however, :feel a relationship with the saints and ask the saints to unite with their :prayers to God through Jesus Christ, the one mediator for all of us. : : :Sincerely, : :The Oratory Staff, :********************* :********************* [ names withheld ] -Chris Durham Internet: chrisdu@sco.COM Technical Support UUCP: ...!{uunet,ucscc}!sco!chrisdu The Santa Cruz Operation