Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!att!cbnews!military From: jpulliam@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Jacqueline Pulliam) Newsgroups: sci.military Subject: Re: Airborne Operations Message-ID: <1990Jul11.025523.23775@cbnews.att.com> Date: 11 Jul 90 02:55:23 GMT References: <1990Jul5.020552.14422@cbnews.att.com= <1990Jul6.032814.27856@cbnews.att.com= <1990Jul10.025007.10522@cbnews.att.com> Sender: military@cbnews.att.com (William B. Thacker) Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington IN. Lines: 77 Approved: military@att.att.com From: jpulliam@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Jacqueline Pulliam) >From: eos!woody@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Wayne Wood) > >=From: jpulliam@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Jacqueline Pulliam) >= >==From: Scott.Johnson@p0.f7.n391.z8.fidonet.org (Scott Johnson) >== The tradeoffs of paratrooper ops is vulnerability . A >==paratrooper, hanging from a parachute for several minutes, is >==possibly the easiest target in the military world (except for >==grounded airplanes, maybe). Until he gets clear of that parachute, >==he is a target, not a soldier. >= >=I still agree, at least with all after the first sentence. >= > >unfortunately, i do not. > >first, depending on conditions, a 'trooper is in the air for less >than a minute. my own jump experience averaged about 45 *seconds*. > >except for disasterous mistakes like Ste. Mere Eglise at Normandy the idea >is to drop the troops somewhere where they aren't likely to be seen. > >"Where is the prince so mighty that he can protect his country from assault >from the air?" > -- unknown (and pretty damn mangled, but you get the idea) I agree that a minute is a long time in the air. When I originally read what Scott wrote, I interpreted that as "several moments." My mistake. I still agree with his main point, that we are highly vulnerable while in the air. Planners never intend to drop troops onto a hot DZ, but it happens (e.g., Just Cause was reportedly compromised, and the PDF met the 82nd at the DZ). And whether you're in the air for 10 seconds or 50, it would obviously seem like an eternity if you were suspended from nylon, being fired at, and your weapon was secured in a container. Whether the firers can hit you or not, there is nothing you can do to defend yourself until you reach the ground. From that perspective, I still agree with Scott. > yes, they do have a high potential for casualties. that's why they're >considered expendable troops. but if you wish to do a small unit insertion I've seen this before, but never understood it. Who (in a position of authority) ever said _any_ troops were "expendable". This sounds like something out of a Sylvester Stallone or Chuck Norris movie to me. >you can't beat a drop. all airborne operations do not involve battalion >or larger mass tactical jumps! try a hop-n-pop sometime... I agree not all airborne ops are mass tacs; but you're confusing terms. A "hop-n-pop" refers to the disposal of chutes when the jumpers reach the DZ (in this case, the jumpers don't have to do anything with the chutes; they just get out of them and leave them); it has nothing to do with the size of the drop. In combat, _all_ jumps are hop-n-pop (including battalion-and-larger deliveries). >apparently the pilots of the gliders were sergeants... and though the training >may have been sketchy, the performance was admirable. much better i might >add, than that of the pilots of the troop transports who delivered their >loads so far off target and widely scattered that several units were >virtually ineffective during D-day. how many sticks of 'troopers were >dropped in the English Channel? How many were dropped so low their 'chutes >didn't open before impact? keep in mind that a 'trooper must fall ~250 >feet *before* his 'chute opens. I am not normally in the habit of defending the Air Force (Air Corps, in this case 8-), but you have to keep in mind that in that day and age the pilots didn't have all the electronic naviagation wizardry which makes near-perfect drops so common-place today. They navigated by sight and dead reckoning (map and compass). They were flying at night over blacked-out countryside. They didn't perform any miracles on a large scale, but I would tend to believe they did fairly well given the tools with which they worked. When were you in, Wayne?