Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: 'Veneration of the 'Saints'' Message-ID: Date: 5 Jul 90 07:49:26 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston -- Department of Mathematics Lines: 66 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu I preface these remarks by saying that I do not approve of prayer directed at or through saints or angels. However, on the topic of angels as vehicles for prayer, the following passage from Revelation is interesting:(Revelation 8:3,5) "Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand." Now a few comments. The word 'saints' here refers to believers; particularly those still in this world. In addition, I think we can safely say that angels carry our prayers to God, or at least they carry them in the heavenly worship. But I find no basis in Scripture for recommending that someone ask an angel to carry his/her prayer to God. The angels are God's to order about; I suppose we could ask God to send a particular angel to carry our prayer, but that makes no sense to me. Prayer to saints is chiefly defended as 'conversation'. One might accept that; however in dealing with the unseen, the line between conversation and worship can be very fine. Shouldn't we be more concerned about warning our people against idolatry than in protecting a practice which is not commanded? Doesn't it make sense that we use our time of grace to do that which God commanded, rather than that which is not commanded? BTW, where the Lutheran Confessions deal with this, they first of all answer the complaint of the Roman Confutation that: "They [the Lutheran princes] admit that the mamory of saints may be set before us so that we may follow their faith and good works, but not that they be invoked and called on for aid ... This error...has often been condemned in the church, ever since on this field of battle Jerome conquered Vigilantius eleven hundred years ago...Wherefore this article of the [Augsburg] Confession, so frequently condemned, must be utterly rejected and, in harmony with the whole universal church, be condemned, for in favor of the invocation of saints we have not only the authority of the universal church but also the agreement of the holy Fathers..." (Pt. I, Art. XXI) To the quoted passage Melancthon responds in his 'Apology to the Augsburg Confession': "These asses do not see that in the controversy between Jerome and Vigilantius there is not a syllable about invoking, but only honoring, the saints. Nor do the rest of the ancient Fathers before Gregory mention invocation." Perhaps the strongest argument in the 'Apology' against prayer to the saints is the following: "Men suppose that Christ is more severe and the saints more approachable; so they trust more in the mercy of the saints than in the mercy of Christ and they flee from Christ and turn to the saints. Thus they actually make them mediators of redemption." David H. Wagner A confessional Lutheran "Built on the Rock the Church doth stand, Even when steeples are falling; Crumbled have spires in ev'ry land, Bells still are chiming and calling, Calling the young and old to rest, But above all the soul distrest, Longing for rest everlasting." My opinions and beliefs are probabalistically independent of any held by The University of Houston.